D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Guest 6801328]

And remember... orcs do not exist. You are not offending anybody creating a stupid race.

@Umbran responded extensively to this post, but I want to call out this paragraph in particular (as I did with another poster).

There is a common...and I think dangerous...misconception that the problem with racist/misogynistic/etc. speech is that it "offends" people. Unfortunately, this stance makes it sound like it's just a matter of etiquette, and makes it seem reasonable that those offended should just get thicker skins, or something like that.

No. The problem is not that certain speech offends. The problem is two-fold:

1. Many people carry genuine emotional trauma from the types of events we are discussing. Even without any physical abuse, a de-humanizing encounter with authorities...let alone repeated such encounters...can cause lasting emotional damage. An analogy I've made in other threads is PTSD: if you wouldn't dismiss the PTSD of combat veterans as them simply "being offended", don't dismiss the PTSD of victims of misogyny, racism, and other forms of discrimination.
2. The casual repetition of such themes, for example as jokes or in games, normalizes them. It's easy to say, "Yeah, but they're just orcs...this isn't real life." But what we're doing is propagating this idea that some races/species/cultures/whatever are just inherently bad, and it's ok to treat them as 2nd, 3rd class citizens.

And I have a confession: even though I believe the above, I really struggle with this conversation about orcs. I like having orcs being the bad guys. I like being able to kill them on sight without having it turn into some kind of morally ambiguous riddle every time. I play games to have fun, not make the world a better place!

And it's not just orcs: throughout history/legend/myth/etc there have been orc-equivalents. The trope obviously pushes some kind of human-nature button because storytellers have used it for centuries. It's easy and familiar for us humans to understand. Which is probably also why it feels easy and familiar in games.

So I get the pushback.

But I also ask myself: is it necessary?

 

[TheSword]

Once upon a time, D&D was the niche hobby of people who had been rejected by the mainstream social order.

I don't think it's a coincidence that only now, with the giant influx of "normies" who lack a geeky, intellectual background and a sense of social ostracism that makes them cleave tightly to their beloved subculture, that we're suddenly getting all these complaints.

Pretty much anything that goes mainstream ends up getting crappier as a result. Because the majority of people suck. You have to ruin a thing to make it popular, because otherwise it will be too smart and complex for a bunch of yokels to "get it".

I can’t tell if this is intentionally baiting. So I‘ll bite back a savage response,

I’ve been playin for 30 years and I can see that in the past some issue like fundamentally evil drow, or Chult being a colony of Baldur’s Gate need updating and revision. That’s not new people coming into the industry... it’s existing people realizing that some things in the past are just wrong.

I don’t believe its necessary to remove ability score bonuses or predominantly evil monsters from the game, but there are some things I just recognize as wrong now. Like large breasted women in chainmail bikinis on the front of game books.

 

[Envisioner]

Conflating people's "trauma" over perceived social ostracism, with PTSD caused by going to war and having bombs explode all around you and turn your best friend into a pink mist before your eyes, is tremendously disrespectful to actual veterans. Assuming the absolute worst assertions of these people are true, that they really are subjected to a continual onslaught of blatant racism or misogyny or the like, that still doesn't deserve to be called PTSD. I can't even imagine how offensive hearing about that kind of thing must be, to someone who has actually suffered a nervous breakdown as a result of their war experiences.

I can’t tell if this is intentionally baiting. So I‘ll bite back a savage response,

I'm not "baiting" anyone; I say what I sincerely believe to be true.

I’ve been playin for 30 years and I can see that in the past some issue like fundamentally evil drow, and Chult being a colony of Baldur’s gate needing update and revision. That’s not new people coming into the industry... it’s existing people realizing that some things in the past are just wrong.

Why do you "realize" this now? Why did you not "realize" it earlier? Is it perhaps because you're now surrounded by a screaming mob of the permanently offended, who have eroded your sanity through sheer repetition of their inane complaints, to the point that you've effectively been browbeaten into agreeing with them? Your past self thought this stuff was fine; why do you assume that that version, rather than your current self, is the one that's wrong?

I don’t believe its necessary to remove ability score bonuses or predominantly evil monsters from the game, but there are some things I just recognize as wrong now. Like large breasted women in chainmail bikinis on the front of game books.

I still don't see any valid reason for considering those things wrong. If seeing that stuff makes some generally insecure women feel especially insecure, that problem should be fixed by those womens' therapists, not by the entire rest of society.

 

[Flamestrike]

The ones who want to adjust game or literature to avoid complains. The ones who want to change the dictionary believing that this adjust the world.

Oh OK. I know exactly who you're talking about now.

I've seen your type before in other forums. You'll forgive me for not wanting to engage with you any further, as I find those views repugnant.

I like my Fantasy games to be inclusive thank you very much. You do you.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm not "baiting" anyone; I say what I sincerely believe to be true.

That's actually the most worrying and tragic part of your posting in this thread.

 

[Envisioner]

That's actually the most worrying and tragic part of your posting in this thread.

I though you weren't going to "engage" with me anymore?

Please, refrain from worrying about what I do; anxiety has tremendously negative effects on people's health. Everyone should just relax and stop looking for problems they can obsess over.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Conflating people's "trauma" over perceived social ostracism, with PTSD caused by going to war and having bombs explode all around you and turn your best friend into a pink mist before your eyes, is tremendously disrespectful to actual veterans. Assuming the absolute worst assertions of these people are true, that they really are subjected to a continual onslaught of blatant racism or misogyny or the like, that still doesn't deserve to be called PTSD. I can't even imagine how offensive hearing about that kind of thing must be, to someone who has actually suffered a nervous breakdown as a result of their war experiences.

If it were just social ostracism I would agree with you.

But if you're calling what african-americans* suffer at the hands of the police...and really from the rest of society..."social ostracism" then...then...well $#!& I don't even know what to say to you.

*(Same goes for women, GLBTQ, etc.)

 

[Morrus]

Once upon a time, D&D was the niche hobby of people who had been rejected by the mainstream social order.

I don't think it's a coincidence that only now, with the giant influx of "normies" who lack a geeky, intellectual background and a sense of social ostracism that makes them cleave tightly to their beloved subculture, that we're suddenly getting all these complaints.

Pretty much anything that goes mainstream ends up getting crappier as a result. Because the majority of people suck. You have to ruin a thing to make it popular, because otherwise it will be too smart and complex for a bunch of yokels to "get it".

This is the straw that broke the camel's back after putting up with your unpleasantness for quite some time. With yet another barrage of dozens of reported posts from this thread, 6 warning points, your history of racist posts on this forum, your general contempt for others, and the generally rude way you've conducted yourself over the past few months, I don't think I want you around any more. I think there are probably forums more suited to your 'personality' type.

 

[Stefano Rinaldelli]

@Umbran responded extensively to this post, but I want to call out this paragraph in particular (as I did with another poster).

There is a common...and I think dangerous...misconception that the problem with racist/misogynistic/etc. speech is that it "offends" people. Unfortunately, this stance makes it sound like it's just a matter of etiquette, and makes it seem reasonable that those offended should just get thicker skins, or something like that.

No. The problem is not that certain speech offends. The problem is two-fold:

1. Many people carry genuine emotional trauma from the types of events we are discussing. Even without any physical abuse, a de-humanizing encounter with authorities...let alone repeated such encounters...can cause lasting emotional damage. An analogy I've made in other threads is PTSD: if you wouldn't dismiss the PTSD of combat veterans as them simply "being offended", don't dismiss the PTSD of victims of misogyny, racism, and other forms of discrimination.
2. The casual repetition of such themes, for example as jokes or in games, normalizes them. It's easy to say, "Yeah, but they're just orcs...this isn't real life." But what we're doing is propagating this idea that some races/species/cultures/whatever are just inherently bad, and it's ok to treat them as 2nd, 3rd class citizens.

And I have a confession: even though I believe the above, I really struggle with this conversation about orcs. I like having orcs being the bad guys. I like being able to kill them on sight without having it turn into some kind of morally ambiguous riddle every time. I play games to have fun, not make the world a better place!

And it's not just orcs: throughout history/legend/myth/etc there have been orc-equivalents. The trope obviously pushes some kind of human-nature button because storytellers have used it for centuries. It's easy and familiar for us humans to understand. Which is probably also why it feels easy and familiar in games.

So I get the pushback.

But I also ask myself: is it necessary?

Agree with your point number two. But seriously: how you evaluate the intelligence of somebody who see Orcs as a racist metaphore of Afroamerican people? Nobody here is racist, so why are we having an argument? Because the problem is not to be or not to be sensible and aware that we must respect the spirit of our times. The problem is if it's right to change something that is not racist to avoid the racism accusation as if a woman puts pants instead of miniskirt to avoid being raped.
WoTC wants to remove the -2INT on Orcs, why? To negate that are genetically more stupid than humans because it is impossible that a fictional race is genetically more stupid than humans? ABSURD. Because Orcs are afroamericans so is not right to say that they are more stupid than humans? But wait, Afroamericans are humans... oh what a mess! ABSURD and untrue. To surrender to the fact that to avoid complains WoTC must prevent every single idiocy that can come in the mind of an obsessed antiracist? GOTCHA. Literally to put pants instead of skirt cause rapists exist.

 

[TheSword]

I'm not "baiting" anyone; I say what I sincerely believe to be true.

Why do you "realize" this now? Why did you not "realize" it earlier? Is it perhaps because you're now surrounded by a screaming mob of the permanently offended, who have eroded your sanity through sheer repetition of their inane complaints, to the point that you've effectively been browbeaten into agreeing with them? Your past self thought this stuff was fine; why do you assume that that version, rather than your current self, is the one that's wrong?

I still don't see any valid reason for considering those things wrong. If seeing that stuff makes some generally insecure women feel especially insecure, that problem should be fixed by those womens' therapists, not by the entire rest of society.

Well my partner is black so maybe he might have influenced me, though he tolerates my gaming with mild bemusement, and wouldn’t know a drow from a dhow. He does think people equating orcs with POC is crazy but only as far as I’ve relayed the discussion.

I think the main reason I feel uncomfortable with historical depictions of drow is that I’ve listened to people who DO know they are talking about and are unhappy about it. In listening to their position I’m open to changing my mind which in most places is a virtue not a sin.