D&D 5E WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward

On Twitter, Jeremy Crawford discussed the treatment of orcs, Vistani, drow and others in D&D, and how WotC plans to treat the idea of 'race' in D&D going forward. In recent products (Eberron and Wildemount), the mandatory evil alignment was dropped from orcs, as was the Intelligence penalty.

@ThinkingDM Look at the treatment orcs received in Eberron and Exandria. Dropped the Intelligence debuff and the evil alignment, with a more acceptable narrative. It's a start, but there's a fair argument for gutting the entire race system.

The orcs of Eberron and Wildemount reflect where our hearts are and indicate where we’re heading.

@vorpaldicepress I hate to be "that guy", but what about Drow, Vistani, and the other troublesome races and cultures in Forgotten Realms (like the Gur, another Roma-inspired race)? Things don't change over night, but are these on the radar?

The drow, Vistani, and many other folk in the game are on our radar. The same spirit that motivated our portrayal of orcs in Eberron is animating our work on all these peoples.

@MileyMan1066 Good. These problems need to be addressed. The variant features UA could have a sequel that includes notes that could rectify some of the problems and help move 5e in a better direction.

Addressing these issues is vital to us. Eberron and Wildemount are the first of multiple books that will face these issues head on and will do so from multiple angles.

@mbriddell I'm happy to hear that you are taking a serious look at this. Do you feel that you can achieve this within the context of Forgotten Realms, given how establised that world's lore is, or would you need to establish a new setting to do this?

Thankfully, the core setting of D&D is the multiverse, with its multitude of worlds. We can tell so many different stories, with different perspectives, in each world. And when we return to a world like FR, stories can evolve. In short, even the older worlds can improve.

@SlyFlourish I could see gnolls being treated differently in other worlds, particularly when they’re a playable race. The idea that they’re spawned hyenas who fed on demon-touched rotten meat feels like they’re in a different class than drow, orcs, goblins and the like. Same with minotaurs.

Internally, we feel that the gnolls in the MM are mistyped. Given their story, they should be fiends, not humanoids. In contrast, the gnolls of Eberron are humanoids, a people with moral and cultural expansiveness.

@MikeyMan1066 I agree. Any creature with the Humanoid type should have the full capacity to be any alignmnet, i.e., they should have free will and souls. Gnolls... the way they are described, do not. Having them be minor demons would clear a lot of this up.

You just described our team's perspective exactly.

As a side-note, the term 'race' is starting to fall out of favor in tabletop RPGs (Pathfinder has "ancestry", and other games use terms like "heritage"); while he doesn't comment on that specifically, he doesn't use the word 'race' and instead refers to 'folks' and 'peoples'.

 

[Charlaquin]

There is a difference between dismissing the content of an argument and pointing out that a person attempting to advance an argument is shooting themselves in the foot. I'm not going to touch on the content of the argument, because that's waaay outside the scope of this thread. But I am going to urge you, if you think your response to the troll there was productive, to consider the ways it might not be.

I agree with you that the slogan puts people off unnecessarily. I believe that explaining that it doesn’t mean what it sounds like it means is an infinitely more helpful way to address that issue than trying to shame people for using it.

I'm not only referring to the term. The PHB presents the races in a certain way. We've got page after page here of people speculating about less-objectionable ideas which might be behind that presentation. And these are probably somewhere close to the mark; I don't think anybody here suspects the WotC crew of intentionally trying to cause harm.

Intent doesn’t matter. If harm is being caused, that should be addressed, whether it was intentional or not.

But if somebody were to say, "The actual idea behind orcs is a nuanced one. I didn't decide how the PHB is written. If I had, it would probably be written differently. But it is what it is, and it's silly to dismiss the actual idea of orcs because of the simplistic way they're presented", I feel like a response of "No, the presentation of this idea is important too!" would be appropriate.

Except such a statement would not hold up to scrutiny. And it’s a shaky metaphor. A better one would be if orcs *weren’t” essentially evil, and someone arguing “I didn’t write the orc stat block and if I had it wouldn’t list their alignment as chaotic evil, but it is what it is, and the rest of the text actually presents them in a nuanced manner and makes it clear that they aren’t evil by nature.”

 

[Aldarc]

It's an opinion he's entitled to have, I just hope they won't go around butchering existing canon from now on.

What you don't seem to get is that the canon has changed between and within editions for the entire history of the game. D&D is a game that has reformed, is reforming, and will reform again.

I'm sure you're familiar with the term "vocal minority".

Sure. I can even use the term in a sentence: "There is a vocal minority of posters in the 'WotC's Jeremy Crawford on D&D Races Going Forward' thread who are throwing an irrational tantrum that D&D designers are considering a more nuanced portrayal of orcs that potentially removes some of the overt undertones that parallel real life racist rhetoric so that the game more accurately reflects the inclusive sentiments of the designers and its growing playerbase."

Are you seriously telling me that a D&D lead designer choose to express his opinions on this matter right now just out of sheer coincidence, nothing at all to do with current events? God bless your sweet heart, child, right back at ya.

He was responding to a June 12 tweet that was commending the more nuanced portrayal of orcs in the recent Eberron (Nov 2019) and Wildemount (Mar 2020) books, which also asked if Vistani and Drow would also receive a look. If Crawford was responding to this Tweet before June 12th then he would be a time traveler. However, this original tweet itself exists in the same continuum of discussion that extends back to March on Twitter about the portrayal of orcs and racism in fantasy RP. But I also don't think that it's sheer coincidence either, but I also didn't say that it was. However, you were most definitely implying on several occasions that it is only in response to the George Floyd killing:

It's happening now because of a strong emotional (ergo, irrational) response to a very tragic and horrible crime.

Please note the singular use of "crime" here. Of course this ignores the other recent cases of black victimization and police brutality that are included in this most recent wave of protests. And then you have the audacity to say with a straight face that D&D was somehow an innocent bystander that is now a victim of anti-racist movements across Euro-America: I believe your exact words were "paying the price for a crime it didn't commit." So this to me suggests that you are also ignorant about larger movement of protests and what's going on despite claiming to be sympathetic to the cause as well as being ignorant of the larger discussion of race in fantasy RP. So if your job, degree, and natural disposition do nothing to educate you why your entire argument has been completely fallacious and tone deaf, then I'm afraid that they have failed you miserably at an incredibly inconvenient time.

All right, I'm getting quite sick of your attitude. You're clearly unable to discuss with anyone that has a slightly different opinion than yours. Bye.

I'm honestly just gobsmacked by how little you seem to know about the people who design your fantasy elf game or the century-long arguments surrounding racist tropes in fantasy RP.

There are also many parallels between racist ideas about non-white people (for example that they are bloodthirsty, bestial, of lower intelligence, uncivilised, physically superior, and breed faster) and evil fantasy races. See the thread I linked in post #1183 for details.

Or parallels between the cursed skin of the drow and the Church of Latter Day Saints saying that black skin was the curse of Cain (at least until 1978).

I would also like to point out that Jeremy Crawford was one of the lead designers at Green Ronin along with Stephen Kenson, Dawn Elliot, and John Snead of a 2005 game called Blue Rose. Compare how D&D portrays drow, orcs, and Vistani with how Blue Rose portrays vata'sha (dark vata), night people, and Roamers, respectively. I don't think that Jeremy Crawford saying that they want the norms of race in D&D to evolve comes out of the blue. Or maybe it does, though out of the Blue Rose.

 

[TheSword]

And ofc Tolkien explicitly drew a parallel between orcs and Asian people. See post #733 upthread for details.

At the risk of defending Tolkein (I live in Oxford so feel a certain obligation). He does qualifiy the description in the letter you quoted. By adding the phrase (to Europeans) he makes clear that this is a view is biased by nationality. By using the phrase least-favourable he is making it clear that the description doesn't represent the typical mongol people. Its difficult as it was of such a different time but I think its worth recognising that even Tolkein recognised that there was bias in that description. I'm not saying that it was a sensible inspiration for orcs but rather there is more nuance in the sentance than I see some people give Tolkein credit.

I also think his other letters should be taken into consdieration before assumptions writing off Tolkein as a racist as I have seen in other threads.

[Edit: To be clear - Tolkein searching around for a real world people to describe the physical descriptions of an essentially evil and repugnant race, even in a private letter, is utterly wrong and we should acknowledge that openly. I look at some of Tolkeins other letters and I hope and believe that if he had been writing in todays time he would have understood that those references are harmful and would have found another way to describe the orc. Anyone who disagrees with this last point is free to unlike the post!]

 

[Helldritch]

This is fascinating. You're saying that black and white fantasy, for your "player community", whatever that might be, stemmed large from an attempt to avoid any kind of moral or ethical inclarity that might have got you labelled as "Satanists"?

Exactly (more or less). We were young at the time and we live in a relatively strong religious area. It is not to say that religion permates everything but it does have influence and many parents will listen to their shepherd... If the game is not clear and seems dubious, it could lead to a few suspicious questions.

Although the problem of morality is lessened nowadays but with this new tendency to see things that are not necessarily there... We did have questions about the slaying of hobgoblins (and not orcs but just about any evil could have had the same line of questioning) from a few concerned parents. It is fortunate that I am strongly implicated in our gaming community as I have been the one to explain that these races are a caricature of evil and that they can't be redeemed. It worked. Being 50 years old does have its advantages as many know me and know that I am implicated in a lot of charity and volonteering. This is why I much prefer to see people fighting intolerance, racism, bigotry and sexism in the real world than in a book when a lot depends on how you want to see it. Fighting these in the real world have the advantage of actually achieving something. In a book...

 

[PsyzhranV2]

He was responding to a June 12 tweet that was commending the more nuanced portrayal of orcs in the recent Eberron (Nov 2019) and Wildemount (Mar 2020) books, which also asked if Vistani and Drow would also receive a look. If Crawford was responding to this Tweet before June 12th then he would be a time traveler. However, this original tweet itself exists in the same continuum of discussion that extends back to March on Twitter about the portrayal of orcs and racism in fantasy RP. But I also don't think that it's sheer coincidence either, but I also didn't say that it was. However, you were most definitely implying on several occasions that it is only in response to the George Floyd killing:

Crawford's actually been catching heat for not getting involved in that "DiscOrcs" this past spring (I think it was April, not March)? There are people accusing WotC's only addressing this now as coming off as opportunistic and as cribbing off of the work of indie designers, while doing nothing to support the voices that first pointed out the issue (well, not first, but first super vocal ones this year) and subsequently being harassed and attacked by chuds, channers, and possible Neo-Nazis. I agree with those critical voices, but at the same time I'm still happy that this is being addressed at all.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I also think his other letters should be taken into consdieration before assumptions writing off Tolkein as a racist as I have seen in other threads.

I hope that most people are judged fairly. Some people (HP Lovecraft) are arguably even worse than their time, some people (Tolkien) are probably of their time, and some people one might be able to credit as being slightly ahead of their time.

I don't think that most people are bringing up Tolkien (at least not here) in order to unfairly malign him, but simply to show that the origins of some of these things are complicated, and to rebut the common refrain that we see of, "But these fantasy races have nothing to do with actual humanity!"

 

[Guest 6801328]

No, I'm still here, thank you for your concern ^^

Yes, under an obviously shiny new avatar. Welcome back. Kinda.

 

[TheSword]

I hope that most people are judged fairly. Some people (HP Lovecraft) are arguably even worse than their time, some people (Tolkien) are probably of their time, and some people one might be able to credit as being slightly ahead of their time.

I don't think that most people are bringing up Tolkien (at least not here) in order to unfairly malign him, but simply to show that the origins of some of these things are complicated, and to rebut the common refrain that we see of, "But these fantasy races have nothing to do with actual humanity!"

To your first point I agree and have amended my original post to add this caveat...

[To be clear - Tolkein searching around for a real world people to describe the physical descriptions of an essentially evil and repugnant race, even in a private letter, is utterly wrong and we should acknowledge that openly. I look at some of Tolkeins other letters and I hope and believe that if he had been writing in todays time he would have understood that those references are harmful and would have found another way to describe the orc. Anyone who disagrees with this last point is free to unlike the post!]

To your second point, I dont believe that 5e Orcs do reference a specific (or even general) IRL culture in the way that Tolkein describes. So while it is useful to understand where the origins came from we can also recognise that by removing these elements that do link orcs to IRL people we are repudiating and making clear the position that these monstrous races dont relate to actual humanity. This has been a process that has been ongoing for the last few decades.

 

[Guest 6801328]

You're clearly angry and emotional about the whole situation that's going on. I understand.

Ah, another aspirant to the Jordan Peterson/Phyllis Schlafly (sp?) debating technique. I’m always curious if this is intentional emulation, or just something that more subtly permeates certain sub-cultures. (For the uninitiated, it’s a method of provoking the other into increasing levels of anger, while maintaining a veneer of calm and rationality. Done well...and Jordan Peterson really is good at it...it has a powerful effect on undecided observers.)

In any event, are you NOT angry about racism? Do you not feel any emotion when confronted first with systemic racism, and then with weaselly excuses for ignoring it?

If so, that’s too bad.

 

[Aldarc]

Crawford's actually been catching heat for not getting involved in that "DiscOrcs" this past spring (I think it was April, not March)? There are people accusing WotC's only addressing this now as coming off as opportunistic and as cribbing off of the work of indie designers, while doing nothing to support the voices that first pointed out the issue (well, not first, but first super vocal ones this year) and subsequently being harassed and attacked by chuds, channers, and possible Neo-Nazis. I agree with those critical voices, but at the same time I'm still happy that this is being addressed at all.

I certainly recall Geek & Sundry and WotC getting (well-deserved) flack for an article that praised WotC for breaking ground in the TTRPG industry for LGBTQ inclusivity. That article definitely was insulting to the decades of prior indie designers and forerunners of inclusive gaming in the industry.