D&D 5E Level 20 Class Competition Ideas

[Sword of Spirit]

2. Make two tiny little changes:
A. You cannot Simulacrum a Simulacrum.
B. A creature cannot have more than one Simulacrum in existence at any time.

Honestly, I just assume everyone runs it like that.

 

[Asisreo]

Nothing wrong with poison, but in a game with feats, any serious Wizard who doesn't take Resilient for CON is asking for trouble. Given their low HP, having a good CON (or great one really) is also desirable. Most poisons have such a low DC (particularly ones the incapacitate) that you only fail on a 1 really. I mean, I know it is a stretch but very possible for a CON 18 or 20 even, and with DC 13 you could have a +11 max, meaning a 2 succeeds.

That is more why Quivering Palm is such a possible pain. Given a maxed out WIS score, the DC becomes 19, so the odds of failure increase to 35% or so instead of just 5-10% against poison.

Well, I hope you have a great build in mind then! I'm still thinking about a way to organize this whole thing...

Yeah, unless you're willing to either not have your 20 in int and/or dex, you'll probably have a +1-2 con at best. Your AC will be lower since you have a feat.

You'll probably have around a +8-9 con which still isn't bad. The problem arises when the fighter can force that save roughly 4 times a turn. You'll have roughly a 59% chance of failing one, which is all it takes.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yeah, unless you're willing to either not have your 20 in int and/or dex, you'll probably have a +1-2 con at best. Your AC will be lower since you have a feat.

You'll probably have around a +8-9 con which still isn't bad. The problem arises when the fighter can force that save roughly 4 times a turn. You'll have roughly a 59% chance of failing one, which is all it takes.

The fighter still has to hit. But again, I am not going to get into a build vs. build... I am not giving away all my secrets either.

Suffice it to say, I am not concerned about any martial build.

 

[Helldritch]

Ok let me tell you how any fights against diviner starts. Let's assume no spells from other classes and only one spell precast.

Players rolls for initiative. Diviner can use portent if necessary. Any roll higher than a 15 (by the enemy) would justify its use. The high roll of portent is used.

Starting distance of any class, 30 feet. The diviner disappear. A caster will try counter spell, but no spell were cast. As a result, the spell fails, reaction is used up. Almost immediately, meteor swarm falls from the sky if against a normally weak saved dex type character. The save will be failed if portent was not used. Against target such as a monk or rogue, the fight will linger a bit, but we all know that a flying caster is pretty much untouchable. Improved invisibility could also be used. At one arrow per round, well, you understand.

Feeblemind could also be used against a caster, especially if portent is still available.

For those who wonder how is it possible to disapear without using your action, read the PHB. The solution is right there.

Edit:" Clarified a sentence about the usage of portent in the initiative).

 

[DND_Reborn]

Honestly, I just assume everyone runs it like that.

It would make sense, but that isn't RAW. That is why I think it needs errata. The way it is currently written, a 17th level Wizard could have just about as many simulacrums as he wants.

Wizard creates Simulacrum "A"
A uses Wish to make another Simulacrum, "B", of the Wizard (who still has his 9th level slot).
B uses its Wish to make another Simulacrum, "C", of the Wizard (who, again, still has his 9th level slot).
Since each new Simulacrum is of the original Wizard, they all have a 9th level slot, which each can use in turn to make another simulacrum of the Wizard.

Each simulacrum has all the slots of the Wizard minus one 7th and the 9th. And all for the cost of 1500 gp of ruby dust. After the initial 12-hour casting, a new simulacrum can be made every turn. Ridiculous.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ok let me tell you how any fights against diviner starts. Let's assume no spells from other classes and only one spell precast.

Players rolls for initiative. Diviner can use portent if necessary. Any roll lower than a 15 would justify its use. The high roll of portent is used.

Starting distance of any class, 30 feet. The diviner disappear. A caster will try counter spell, but no spell were cast. As a result, the spell fails, reaction is used up. Almost immediately, meteor swarm falls from the sky if against a normally weak saved dex type character. The save will be failed if portent was not used. Against target such as a monk or rogue, the fight will linger a bit, but we all know that a flying caster is pretty much untouchable. Improved invisibility could also be used. At one arrow per round, well, you understand.

Feeblemind could also be used against a caster, especially if portent is still available.

For those who wonder how is it possible to disapear without using your action, read the PHB. The solution is right there.

While I completely agree the Diviner has an enormous edge, you should get a one thing straight (otherwise you are using portent wrong, and making it even stronger than it already is):

Portent has to be used before the die is rolled. Once the die is cast, it is too late.

So, for initiative, you take a low roll (if you have one) and hope you roll better (or use one of your rolls to help you win).
For saves, same thing, you have to use the roll before the die is cast.

 

[Helldritch]

While I completely agree the Diviner has an enormous edge, you should get a one thing straight (otherwise you are using portent wrong, and making it even stronger than it already is):

Portent has to be used before the die is rolled. Once the die is cast, it is too late.

So, for initiative, you take a low roll (if you have one) and hope you roll better (or use one of your rolls to help you win).
For saves, same thing, you have to use the roll before the die is cast.

You misread, or i was not clear enough. Probably the later. Portent will be used against high initiative roller. If against a strength based character which is unlikely to have a initiative count, portent will be saved for a failure for the saving throw.

The reference to the die roll was for the enemy's initiative. Nothing in the rule is against that. In my post, for some reason it wrote lower instead of higher. Writing on a phone while at work can do strange thing. I will correct the post.

 

[Hohige]

You misread, or i was not clear enough. Probably the later. Portent will be used against high initiative roller. If against a strength based character which is unlikely to have a initiative count, portent will be saved for a failure for the saving throw.

The reference to the die roll was for the enemy's initiative. Nothing in the rule is against that. In my post, for some reason it wrote lower instead of higher. Writing on a phone while at work can do strange thing. I will correct the post.

People is overrating the Diviner.
But, the Divine Soul Sorcerer wreck them pretty easily even in a completely unfavorable situation:

I will demonstrate how the Diviner is useless against the Divine Soul Sorcerer.

3d20 with portent.

We will give the diviner full advantage on the battlefield

.

1) Let's assume the average. 5, 10 and 15 on Portent.

2) The Wizard is out of reach for Subtle Spell and not too far for Distant Spell to dominate the game.

3) The Wizard used portent to force the Divine Soul Sorcerer to lose the initiative, expeding the lower dice portent. The Wizard acts

4) What will the Wizard do?

 

[DND_Reborn]

You misread, or i was not clear enough. Probably the later. Portent will be used against high initiative roller. If against a strength based character which is unlikely to have a initiative count, portent will be saved for a failure for the saving throw.

The reference to the die roll was for the enemy's initiative. Nothing in the rule is against that. In my post, for some reason it wrote lower instead of higher. Writing on a phone while at work can do strange thing. I will correct the post.

OK, as long as there was no misunderstanding that portent has to be used before the die is rolled. I've see people use it wrongly, so I just wanted to be certain.

As to your points...

I don't think you will really know if your adversary is STR-based or not, nor will you know their initiative roll before you choose to roll or not. As least at our table, the DM doesn't inform the party of the monsters' initiative until they actually go. So, unless you play differently, how would you know when the opponent is going? Your best best is to use a lower portent roll for the enemy (if you have a decent low roll) or the highest roll for yourself maybe. If you have two rolls significantly far apart, you could use both if you wanted to be certain. Of course, some DM's might limit you to only one initiative roll (yours or the enemy's), but not both.

Now, you might know certain monsters are STR_based or not, but PCs have no tells if they don't want to. Remember, STR is not just muscle mass in 5E, so you can have a STR 20 character who weighs 150 lbs or 250 lbs. And even if they are huge, DEX is not obvious. A PC could have a DEX 20 and STR 20 as well.

Finally, for disappearing if you are thinking of Hiding or moving behind total cover, Hiding uses an action (normally) and if you are behind total cover you can't see your target to ask a spell either. Or are you thinking of moving behind total cover, casting your spell via Ready action to release when you step back out from behind cover? That will foil Counterspell if that was your thought.

 

[Helldritch]

OK, as long as there was no misunderstanding that portent has to be used before the die is rolled. I've see people use it wrongly, so I just wanted to be certain.

As to your points...

I don't think you will really know if your adversary is STR-based or not, nor will you know their initiative roll before you choose to roll or not. As least at our table, the DM doesn't inform the party of the monsters' initiative until they actually go. So, unless you play differently, how would you know when the opponent is going? Your best best is to use a lower portent roll for the enemy (if you have a decent low roll) or the highest roll for yourself maybe. If you have two rolls significantly far apart, you could use both if you wanted to be certain. Of course, some DM's might limit you to only one initiative roll (yours or the enemy's), but not both.

Now, you might know certain monsters are STR_based or not, but PCs have no tells if they don't want to. Remember, STR is not just muscle mass in 5E, so you can have a STR 20 character who weighs 150 lbs or 250 lbs. And even if they are huge, DEX is not obvious. A PC could have a DEX 20 and STR 20 as well.

Finally, for disappearing if you are thinking of Hiding or moving behind total cover, Hiding uses an action (normally) and if you are behind total cover you can't see your target to ask a spell either. Or are you thinking of moving behind total cover, casting your spell via Ready action to release when you step back out from behind cover? That will foil Counterspell if that was your thought.

As for guessing if the the opponent is strength base or not, it is easy. Heavy armor give you a pretty good idea. Especially if wearing plate...

As for disapearing, no, spell at the ready, no hide action taken. Just an interaction which you have one free (sometimes more, bur that is DM fiat). Again, it is the PHB. I can tell you in private if you want to.

If allowed a familliar and a simulacrum, the figth is even more ridiculously in favor of the diviner. If multiple simulacrums are allowed, up to the 20,000 gold pieces limit, then the fight is really one sided in favor of the diviner.