D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[FrogReaver]

Suggestions such as removing the racial penalty to Intelligence for orcs? Suggestions such as not having a monoculture of orcs? Suggestions such as removing the dehumanizing language? Yeah, solutions have been proposed before but they still get ignored in favor of people more keen on denying the existence of a problem.

IMO. Those aren’t solutions unless you are saying get rid of all dumb races, get rid of all monoculture races, get rid of Inherently evil orcs which rightfully should be dehumanized if that’s the fictional reality. None of those are solving the orc, they are just banning things from the game to feel good in the here and now while 5-10 years later we will find this really did nothing to alleviate the issue.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The word twisting you (FrogReaver, to be clear) are accusing people of is itself word twisting.

People are just trying to call it like they see it... and that's not a problem, except when you tell someone that sees something as offense "it's not offensive, you're twisting my words into something that would be offensive." Because guess what; it's not the offender that gets to decide if what they did was offensive.

 

[TheSword]

So instead of just beating the drum of "it's wrong" how about discussing if there's any option? Are ogres racist because they're stupid? Should people from eastern asia be offended because everybody knows orientals are short and more intelligent just like gnomes? Would it helped if we removed the -2 penalty to int if you play an orc?

If the way gnomes are portrayed encourages these stereotypes and does nothing to address them, while making people of colour feel bad in the game then of course. There will be lots of things we will have to consider though I have no idea if that will be one of them.

 

[FrogReaver]

The word twisting you (FrogReaver, to be clear) are accusing people of is itself word twisting.

People are just trying to call it like they see it... and that's not a problem, except when you tell someone that sees something as offense "it's not offensive, you're twisting my words into something that would be offensive." Because guess what; it's not the offender that gets to decide if what they did was offensive.

I refuse to take the bait. My viewing something as inoffensive Doesn’t mean you can’t simultaneously view it as offensive. Symbols aren’t objective.

 

[Oofta]

The word twisting you are accusing people of is itself word twisting.

People are just trying to call it like they see it... and that's not a problem, except when you tell someone that sees something as offense "it's not offensive, you're twisting my words into something that would be offensive." Because guess what; it's not the offender that gets to decide if what they did was offensive.

Then rather than throwing "you're wrong" vs "no you are" how about discussing whether or not there are specific steps that can be taking short of removing orcs from the game or stripping them of all their fluff?

I understand the issues are real. The people behind Satanic panic also had heartfelt emotional concern. The current situation is sadly far more real to most people (including me), but to a certain group their children losing their souls was just as real.

 

[FrogReaver]

Word twisting is saying people concerns are squeaky wheels, comparing examples of unpleasant experiences to big foot sightings. Now we see a poster comparing the problems to fantasy mountains. Its smokescreen stuff to justify systemic racism (I make no accusation of individual racism). If you and others keep arguing this stuff you’re gonna get a response.

You’ve claimed I’m not helping improve understanding but I’ve made the problem as simple as it can be.

i refuse to take the bait here as well

 

[TheSword]

IMO. Those aren’t solutions unless you are saying get rid of all dumb races, get rid of all monoculture races, get rid of Inherently evil orcs which rightfully should be dehumanized if that’s the fictional reality. None of those are solving the orc, they are just banning things from the game to feel good in the here and now while 5-10 years later we will find this really did nothing to alleviate the issue.

No need to get rid of them. I don’t think anyone is saying get rid of them. Just nuance them. Having a few thousand good, neutral Or technically advanced orcs doesn’t invalidate the evil ones, it’s makes people stop making assumptions though.

 

[FrogReaver]

No need to get rid of them. I don’t think anyone is saying get rid of them. Just nuance them. Having a few thousand good, neutral Or technically advanced orcs doesn’t invalidate the evil ones, it’s makes people stop making assumptions though.

isnt that going to be perceived as just as racist and offensive? There’s a few good orcs that are exceptions to the stereotype of bad evil orcs that offended you. That should make everything better... Wouldn’t that be more offensive than doing nothing?

 

[Olrox17]

No need to get rid of them. I don’t think anyone is saying get rid of them. Just nuance them. Having a few thousand good, neutral Or technically advanced orcs doesn’t invalidate the evil ones, it’s makes people stop making assumptions though.

So...
I'm quoting myself:

My current position is that I'm totally fine with having new "different" orcs, as long as the "traditional", standard, Gruumsh-loving evil orc is not expunged from the game.

Agree/Disagree?

 

[Umbran]

The orc language parallels white supremacist rhetoric...

Mod Note:

We just closed that thread. Do not re-litigate it here if you want to remain in the discussion.