D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[TheSword]

But that doesn't really answer the primary question being brought forth. Are those elements I listed too offensive to include or is it just a particular implementation of them that's out?

Yes it is possible. Just ask yourself the question am I alluding to real world cultures or experiences of people of colour or is it possible that someone could think I’m alluding to real world cultures and experiences of people of colour. Then if the answer is yes, ask yourself if you are perpetuating that stereotype or working against it. That’s your solution.

 

[Maxperson]

The problem with lists like that is that the horrors of WWII greatly skew the numbers of all other wars combined. Take that out and the raw numbers will be way different. You try and tell a Jewish survivor that the attempted extermination of them was just because they were not blonde-haired and blue-eyed and not because of their religion too. Plus, if their book only counts military dead, then it is totally invalidated, as I was talking about civilian casualties too, including all the purges that do not count officially as a war.

WWII doesn't really skew much. The numbers were 1,723 wars and only 123 of them being religious. WWII was fought because Germany invaded multiple neighbors in a war of conquest and resources. Germany had been slapped down and heavily sanctioned after WWI. They were economically devastated and were trying to get out from under that.

The genocide may or may not have been around religion, but that wasn't the war. Given the political climate of that era, had Germany not attacked other countries, I'm not convinced anyone would have attacked them and initiated the war.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

Do you honestly feel that the unpleasant experiences where people of colour are reminded of racism by what they experience in the game equates to not being able to buy a luxury toy you want?

I'm from a developing country where your existence as part of a racially excluded group is deeply related to what you can or cannot afford. Most people here are at least a bit mixed race, so "your skin gets fairer as you get a bigger bank account" is a real thing. For a Brazilian, there's no separating where you feel welcome from what you can afford, even on racial issues.

Anyway, I think @FrogReaver nailed it, even without saying it with all the words. You, as well and some other people here, don't want to discuss the issues raised by the OP, you just want to be right. I'll go back to voting on survivor threads.

 

[Aldarc]

That’s a good question, @Oofta. I think that there are ways to change the wording of orcs. WotC and many other activists obviously do too or otherwise the call would be to remove orcs from the game entirely, but it’s not. It’s about how we can rethink orcs and the language we use to talk about them so that we decouple the things we love in our game from the things we (hopefully) oppose in real life. I think that there are many ways to do that but it’s difficult to even get to that conversation if we are constantly being forced into circles explaining how and why this is a problem.

 

[Maxperson]

If I make one thing clear, It is that this is not an imaginary problem. There ARE currently people of colour who have a problem with this and the way people implement this in the game. The essays are well documented and by all accounts it is common discussion amongst people who have experienced it.

I have a problem with overnight healing of all wounds. That's well documented from my time here on the forums. Does that make overnight healing a problem, or just my perception of it?

I've played with a number of black people over the years, including most those DMing at one point or another. None of them ever had an issue with orcs from either side of the screen. Did all of them happen to be ignorant of real life racist rhetoric? Or could it be that not all black people who play this game see the same thing with orcs? And if not, why not?

Having read about the rhetoric, and experienced orcs first hand, it's a stretch to say that the orc language mirrors the hate speech used against black people or the native tribes.

 

[Oofta]

Yes it is possible. Just ask yourself the question am I alluding to real world cultures or experiences of people of colour or is it possible that someone could think I’m alluding to real world cultures and experiences of people of colour. Then if the answer is yes, ask yourself if you are perpetuating that stereotype or working against it. That’s your solution.

You don't ever seem to actually engage the actual questions though. Everything is yes but or no because ... and then real world racism.

Would my tsocul bug monsters be okay even though the book would have bad things to say about them?

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes it is possible. Just ask yourself the question am I alluding to real world cultures or experiences of people of colour or is it possible that someone could think I’m alluding to real world cultures and experiences of people of colour. Then if the answer is yes, ask yourself if you are perpetuating that stereotype or working against it. That’s your solution.

IMO, Nearly any race in D&D could be viewed as alluding to real world cultures or experiences of people of color.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Yes, we've been over this. It's wrong and unfortunate that people of color have been targeted (violently or not) and insulted in the past and now. Those insults are false. They're lies, propagated by racist liars.
Countless other cultures (gauls, germanics, norse, turks, mongols, etc) have been similarly characterized in the past. We've moved on.
I believe no present day french, german, swedish, turkish or mongolian person would feel offended by the D&D depiction of orcs, even though their ancestors were characterized in a similar way. In time, that will be true for people of color, as well.

Ok, I have to comment here. You can't deny that all these groups have been oppressed. I mentioned the Celtic culture earlier. I'm Scottish and I'm not offended by certain tropes BUT my culture isn't CURRENTLY being oppressed. So, I can understand if certain groups would be offended by images of colonialism and what-not while they are simultaneously being treated unfairly.

I don't think it's fair to say, "We experienced this and coped, so you should get over it."
You should say, "We experienced this and understand. Here's how we can help."

For the record, My issue on the Orc debate doesn't deal with this aspect of people's complaints but I've already been over that.

Do you honestly feel that the unpleasant experiences where people of colour are reminded of racism by what they experience in the game equates to not being able to buy a luxury toy you want?

It's an honest thing. As I mentioned above, if certain races and cultures are being oppressed, they will be disproportionately poor. Price makes it exclusive to those with money who also happen to be, on the whole, White people.

 

[TheSword]

I'm from a developing country where your existence as part of a racially excluded group is deeply related to what you can or cannot afford. Most people here are at least a bit mixed race, so "your skin gets fairer as you get a bigger bank account" is a real thing. For a Brazilian, there's no separating where you feel welcome from what you can afford, even on racial issues.

Anyway, I think @FrogReaver nailed it, even without saying it with all the words. You, as well and some other people here, don't want to discuss the issues raised by the OP, you just want to be right. I'll go back to voting on survivor threads.

That sounds pretty horrible and I’m sorry that’s your experience. It’s not my place to tell you what about the hobby makes you feel bad or not. Though when you then said you weren’t really bothered by how much the dragon cost, I misunderstood your point.

 

[FrogReaver]

That’s a good question, @Oofta. I think that there are ways to change the wording of orcs. WotC and many other activists obviously do too or otherwise the call would be to remove orcs from the game entirely, but it’s not. It’s about how we can rethink orcs and the language we use to talk about them so that we decouple the things we love in our game from the things we (hopefully) oppose in real life. I think that there are many ways to do that but it’s difficult to even get to that conversation if we are constantly being forced into circles explaining how and why this is a problem.

Sometimes proposing a potential solution instead of just lamenting that something is a problem goes a long way. Heck, if the solution is good enough others may not even care whether they agree that it was a problem in the first place.