D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Catulle]

Religion works like race; inaccurate analogy, let's shunt that to the side; yay?

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Now, this is similar to the Satanic Panic. The mere presence of Demons, Devils, and gods in D&D was offensive to the religious people, but it had no real base to their argument.

Just as an aside to this side track, overly religious people may avoid your posts, put you on ignore, or even report you, after they realize your user name has 666 in it. I don't care about that stuff, but it does seriously freak out some people and they could consider you evil just for using it.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm going with a charitable interpretation of what you're saying here, but the satanic panic was not about offensive content; it was about the whole-cloth fabrication of criminal activity attached by a powerful majority to a minority (in the case of D&D) and by the psychological manipulation of vulnerable women in a profoundly abusive pseudo-therapeutic environment (in the satanic abuse regression panic). It was about false allegations of criminal offences that never took place.

ETA: Between the two groups, the D&D crowd suffered far less long-term harm.

As someone who went through it, it was also absolutely about offensive content. When I was 12 I lived in Michigan and went over to a friend's house. While there I saw this book on his brother's shelf that had a dragon on it and some other monsters underground(1e MM). I loved mythology so I picked it up having no clue what it was. My friend's mother suddenly froze like something bad happened. She was probably afraid that it would get out that her kids had D&D. Before she could say anything, the brother offered to teach me how to play. My friend's mother said she had to ask my father who was a preacher, having converted from Judaism to Christianity. Well, he said no because there were things in it that were of the devil. It had nothing to do with crime at all.

Some of it was. A lot of it were just grass roots religious people not wanting their kids or other kids to risk their souls on a game with demons, devils and such in it.

Reducing all of them to "Satanic Panic" belittles their beliefs and tosses aside offense. If it's wrong to do that to those who see orcs as offensive due to white supremacy, it is also wrong to toss the feelings of the religious people aside.

 

[Maxperson]

He isn't on the forum. What he doesn't know won't hurt him.

I happen to love the color green. Lol!

Me too! My car is green.

 

[Maxperson]

Doesn't everyone agree the motive of the Satanic Panic was to destroy D&D? Isn't that an objective fact?

No, or rather if it is an objective fact, then aside from the Satanic Panic, there were also a whole lot of people who were simply offended by D&D containing demons and devils. You can split it into two groups if you want, or one larger group, but either way if you're being dismissive of those who were offended religiously by things like demons and devils, believing that the game put childrens' souls in jeopardy, you are being dismissive of legitimate offense that has foundation.

 

[Maxperson]

Also in stores, larger clubs and cons, core rules will always dominate because of the varied nature of players and expectations of different tables. In those circumstances there has to be some kind of baseline standard. I also think stores and cons are the two places where these problematic issues are most likely to occur with DMs under pressures and dealing with players they may not know.

I'm late responding to this, because I wanted to think about it and I was at work. I think this is a very good point.

Con games outside of AL games seem to be a mixed bag rules wise, but you're right that DMs are often going to be dealing with people that they don't know. I'm not sure this fix will do much to alleviate the issues that plague convention games, but a change can certainly influence AL games due to the established structure of organized play. Perhaps, though, instructions in AL rules would be a better place for it.

 

[Xenonnonex]

No, or rather if it is an objective fact, then aside from the Satanic Panic, there were also a whole lot of people who were simply offended by D&D containing demons and devils. You can split it into two groups if you want, or one larger group, but either way if you're being dismissive of those who were offended religiously by things like demons and devils, believing that the game put childrens' souls in jeopardy, you are being dismissive of legitimate offense that has foundation.

Gygax put in objective evil for good characters to defeat. For good to triumph. Satanic Panic was literally the product of ignorance and hysteria. Of imposing strict view points onto the game. With no avenue for discussion. And no understanding at all of the game. Media fed into that hysteria. And ignorance.
The issues today we do have an understanding of. Mostly. Working on these in game would be a start. Wizards has.

 

[Xenonnonex]

So right off the bat, to me "primal" is just another way of saying "primitive and less developed". Basically



This changes the basic concept of orcs from the MM version. That's fine, but the base assumption is that orcs do want to conquer the world.

If "extremely passionate and emotional" were applied to real world people it would be considered racist.



"Primal and passionate" has racist overtones that have also been used do describe PoC, it's the whole "they're little more than animals so they can't help themselves" lie.

Having said that, I have no problem with this description of orcs. After all, it's helpful to have defining nature to any race or monster.

I'm just pointing out that if people want to see racism they can. I also don't see it as being any better - they still have monolithic tendencies and behaviors. They just aren't defined as evil.

Based on that. Every fantasy race is human like. Got it.

I do not think people should diminish experiences. And say they only want to see what they want to see. That is not great. That means no discussion at all will be coming.

 

[Maxperson]

Gygax put in objective evil for good characters to defeat. For good to triumph. Satanic Panic was literally the product of ignorance and hysteria.

You're arguing that a human can trump God when it comes to religion, and that doesn't work. It's irrelevant what Gygax did or why. To many people playing a game with demons and devils was wrong and offensive. Period. It's not up to you to reduce them to "ignorance and hysteria." and belittle their beliefs. You may not be religious, but to someone who was at that time, it wasn't hysteria or ignorance. That's just your different perspective on what was offensive, just like some of us here have a different perspective on orcs.

 

[Xenonnonex]

You're arguing that a human can trump God when it comes to religion, and that doesn't work. It's irrelevant what Gygax did or why. To many people playing a game with demons and devils was wrong and offensive. Period. It's not up to you to reduce them to "ignorance and hysteria." and belittle their beliefs. You may not be religious, but to someone who was at that time, it wasn't hysteria or ignorance. That's just your different perspective on what was offensive, just like some of us here have a different perspective on orcs.

Gygax was religious. His putting them in the game was religious in part. Which is why he was disappointed.
If people thought it wrong. They should remove it from the game. Not attack the game. Not attack people who like the game.
One is reasonable. The other is extremely unreasonable.

Wizards are doing something. They already have. Good on them.

Whether humans can trump god is irrelevant. Utterly irrelevant. Period. It is not the time or place to discuss.