D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Dire Bare]

Examples of actual anti-Christian content in D&D are Pholtus the Blinding Light and St Cuthbert of the Cudgel from Greyhawk, both created by Gary Gygax, himself a Christian. Both are satires of particular forms of Christianity, not Christianity as a whole.

Satirizing forms of Christianity is not the same thing as being anti-Christian.

 

[Dire Bare]

But correlation does not necessarily equate causation.

What?!? That makes no sense at all. Way to misuse and misquote a cliche that doesn't even remotely apply to this conversation.

No one is claiming that the racist depiction of fantasy races in D&D causes racism in the real world. It's simply ugly language that needs to go. The biggest impact it has on gamers of color made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in the game.

 

[Sadras]

It's simply ugly language that needs to go. The biggest impact it has on gamers of color made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in the game.

How much of it has to go?
I provided a list of words upthread. As yet no one has answered.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I'd be interested to know if any Christian who knows D&D well thinks it has an anti-Christian message.

Demons and devils are presented as evil and so are their followers. The players can take on the role of clerics who have many spells derived from Christianity such as Raise Dead. Evil clerics reverse these spells. The lack of monotheistic religions was intended to avoid giving offence to Christians. Overall I'd say the game has a pro-Christian message.

 

[reelo]

What?!? That makes no sense at all. Way to misuse and misquote a cliche that doesn't even remotely apply to this conversation.

No one is claiming that the racist depiction of fantasy races in D&D causes racism in the real world. It's simply ugly language that needs to go. The biggest impact it has on gamers of color made to feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in the game.

I wasn't implying that causation. You have it backwards. I was questioning whether 19th century racist tropes are to be held directly responsible for the deptction of orcs.

 

[Sadras]

I'd be interested to know if any Christian who knows D&D well thinks it has an anti-Christian message.

Demons and devils are presented as evil and so are their followers. The players can take on the role of clerics who have many spells derived from Christianity such as Raise Dead. The lack of monotheistic religions was intended to avoid giving offence to Christians. Overall I'd say the game has a pro-Christian message.

As I mentioned in the other thread, there was a poster who was Christian, who complained that WotC forced pantheism on him by excluding Monotheism. Did I agree with him. No. Sadly everyone can find offense everywhere/anywhere, thats why I am being extremely specific - where does offense begin and end with the Orc? the Hobgoblin? the Bugbear?....

How many ugly words need to be removed?

 

[Xenonnonex]

I'd be interested to know if any Christian who knows D&D well thinks it has an anti-Christian message.

Demons and devils are presented as evil and so are their followers. The players can take on the role of clerics who have many spells derived from Christianity such as Raise Dead. Evil clerics reverse these spells. The lack of monotheistic religions was intended to avoid giving offence to Christians. Overall I'd say the game has a pro-Christian message.

Only comes from ignorance. Only comes from misunderstanding. People need points like that to push certain narratives.

 

[Lanefan]

3e changed orcs from being human sized LE minions of evil using civilised but dirty gear, tactics etc to being large, strong CE savage barbarians. Old orcs used crossbows and polearms, WotC orcs use great axes and javelins.

Interesting, in that my own orcs have always been human-ish size (a bit bigger and burlier on average, much like gridiron football linemen are to the normal human population), generally CE, and will use (or soon enough learn how to use) any weapon they can find or loot. Green skin, sometimes tinged with brown (they'd blend in well in forests if they ever bothered to try!) with the brown tinge often indicating something else in their ancestry, and prominent tusks.

Their "tactics" usually consist of reliance on massive superiority in numbers: when in doubt, throw more cannon fodder at it.

Drow likewise don't evoke any real world racist stereotypes but do clearly evoke male fears of female power, especially sexual power, with the female spider who devours the male after mating. And some late 80s Drow art looks a bit like Tina Turner - any sane person thinks Tina Turner is awesome but there is a tenuous link there.

Yeah, it's too bad they didn't present at least one major Good-aligned matriarchal and female-dominant culture (Wood Elves?) to balance this out right from the start.

By contrast the Vistani are a clear fantasy analogue of Roma gypsies so concerns about their depiction seem more grounded to me.

So it would seem, though I've never read any of the books being referenced here.

Certainly no real world ethny should ever be labelled "always Chaotic Evil".

What if a real-world ethnic analog - say, a pacifist culture in a cold-climate area with an obvious parallel to Canadians - was labelled "always Neutral Good"?

In theory that's the same mistake made in reverse, but how many people would raise a fuss? As a Canadian, I know I'd just laugh...and then make damn sure it got into my setting so I could dial it up to eleven...

 

[Xenonnonex]

How many ugly words need to be removed?

Lot of posters have answered. In their posts. Problem is will others see a problem getting rid of problem words. And want to keep them in. Because of heritage. Because of fear of change. And push back against this strongly.

 

[Lanefan]

Satirizing forms of Christianity is not the same thing as being anti-Christian.

I'll go a step further: satirizing anything is not the same thing as being anti-[whatever it is being satirized].

IMO far too many people either equate satire with opposition, or take offense to the fact the satire has been done at all.