D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Maxperson]

Cool, so we agree that there's no equivalence and that over-emphasising the impact of the panic on D&D is a wee bit harmful to the survivors of abuse by obviating their experience?

Can we agree that for every person who committed law-enforcement backed persecution, there were probably thousands who didn't do that and were offended? I'm not talking about the ones committing crimes or persecution. I'm talking about the multitudes who believed that D&D promoted or was a gateway to Satanism and was legitimately offended by that.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

The presumption that someone who looked into the game, found a dealbreaker, and yet is around to give a specific account of what that dealbreaker was is a flawed one, Max.

That anyone has identified some bit of language as problematic and has presented sound reasoning explaining why it is problematic - even if they haven't quit the game over it - should be more than enough.

 

[Maxperson]

I am unwilling to look through the perspective of the people who wanted to destroy D&D.

What about the ones who wanted to save souls? You accuse us of not being willing to look from the other perspective, but you show here that you are unwilling to do the same thing. The other perspective being the good act of trying to keep people out of Hell.

 

[Maxperson]

The presumption that someone who looked into the game, found a dealbreaker, and yet is around to give a specific account of what that dealbreaker was is a flawed one, Max.

That wasn't my assumption. I am confident that if there are a good number of people who are being excluded, many of them told people why they were leaving the game or not trying it. People talk. I'd like to know if anyone here knows of someone who was excluded from D&D by orcs.

 

[Hussar]

Okay, dipping a toe back in just to clear up a misconception.

The Satanic Panic wasn't about Christian groups being offended. It wasn't like the game was painting Christian groups in an uncharitable light somehow. The Satanic Panic was based on Christian groups trying to enforce their beliefs on others based on a completely misguided interpretation of the game.

But, it was never about offending Christians. Christian groups were not being pushed out of the hobby by offensive descriptions in the game. Nor, I would point out, were the Christian groups involved in the Satanic Panic being enslaved, murdered or treated as if they were not human by the cultures of the time. Granted, Christian groups have been persecuted. I don't deny that. But, the Satanic Panic had nothing to do with Christian persecution.

OTOH, the descriptions of orcs in the game do unfortunately mirror racist screeds of the 19th and 20th century that were used to dehumanize and justify all sorts of horrible actions.

Therein lies the primary difference. The whole "whatabout fundie Christians?" sidebar is yet another red herring to avoid actually discussing the issue.

But, hey, feel free to go back to your regularly scheduled tail chasing.

@Mercurius , I was impressed by the way when you realized that the changes are actually quite minor, can be done with a minimum of fuss and really, really won't impact anyone else at all. Well done you. Kudos.

 

[S'mon]

It feels like all the worst monsters are people. But trying to become the judge of which are might be one route to becoming one.

If you want to claim an individual serial killer is a monster I'm not going to argue. But no group of people are monsters. Even when they do terrible things. They are people. People do bad things but are still people.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

That wasn't my assumption. I am confident that if there are a good number of people who are being excluded, many of them told people why they were leaving the game or not trying it. People talk. I'd like to know if anyone here knows of someone who was excluded from D&D by orcs.

Other than the first sentence, the text of this post reinforces the appearance that it was your assumption.

And again, it shouldn't require "a good number" to have left the game over this issue and someone to present their story of that to you - it should be enough that anyone has presented sound reasoning for certain text to be considered offensive.

You're doing the equivalent of when someone complains about being put in danger or hurt and responding to their complaints "but did anyone die, though?" That the situation can't be demonstrated as being worse doesn't make the situation as-is acceptable.

 

[Sadras]

I'm talking about the multitudes who believed that D&D promoted or was a gateway to Satanism and was legitimately offended by that.

What is interesting is that the first Satanic Church opened in South Africa this year (what a time to open). I wonder how many of its followers play D&D

 

[Sadras]

Page 19-20. They have begun harassing townsfolk and other visitors demanding money and wine and threatening to put hexes on anyone who does not pay up.
Page 32. These evil vistani. They are searching for graves to plunder.
Page 96. The vistani are not very friendly. Vistani are not welcome in Vallaki.
Page 19 the vistani lie about their allegiance to Strahd
Page 19 the vistani lie about helping the characters
Erasmus was stolen by vistani. And sold to a vampire.

Vistani are neutral or evil. Almost all. Assassins. Bandits. Bandit captains. Thugs they are.

How do you feel about vistani written that way. Not very inclusive. Not very encouraging of integration.

Out of interest, because I don't have CoS yet, the sitings above with the page numbers - are those the perceptions of the Barovians about the Vistani or are these actual facts about the Vistani, because there is a difference.

 

[Imaculata]

Just this week I was going through my Monster Manuals, when I came upon a race called the Lucifarians. And yeah, they are basically devils as you imagine, but in a suit. I could see why THAT might be offensive to some of our Christian gamers. I don't think they would be wrong to be offended by that, and I also don't think the game needs to have devils and demons that are literally named after things from a pretty widespread religion. Optimally, I would want as many people as possible to enjoy this hobby. Is it really too much to ask to take some sensitive issues into account? These things may not be offensive to you or me, but I can definitely see why they might be offensive to others.