D&D General Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity

[Doug McCrae]

The point being, let's stop arguing over interpretation and focus on solutions, which are far easier to come to agreement on.

I appreciate your efforts but I don't think we need to come to a solution, in the sense of a compromise. We're not a political body trying to agree on a joint statement or a policy. By its nature rpg-ing is very individualistic - every game is different.

The solution to the problem of disharmony and long, angry threads on ENWorld is for the mods to ban discussion of the topic. This, in fact, was the approach until recently. Any thread that turned to the subject of "are orcs racist?" would get locked. And I think that was perfectly reasonable. Mods are human, have limited time, and don't want unnecessary hassle. It's the same reason religion and politics are banned.

Wizards of the Coast have already made their decision with regards to published D&D content.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Do the core rulebooks have any such "errors"? Orcs are in Volo's, Vistani in CoS, and Chultans in ToA.
Some could argue the Monster Manual orc section could be revised, but I don't think they're going to do that, and if it does happen, it won't be a huge change.

Don't know! Maybe some light editing of the PHB drow and half-orc sections.

Maybe the MM orc section, not to mention the MM sections for all the other humanoids that lists their alignments (or additional text that states that something something alignment).

I'm just saying that given what was said, you can't assure people that the core books are staying the same. Maybe? Maybe not?

 

[Maxperson]

But, if the religious people knew anything about D&D, they would know that in D&D you kill the demons and devils. The point is, this isn't another "satanic panic" as it actually has a base in the game. Vistani are offensive, and they are making a book with variant rules for character creation. This isn't trying to destroy D&D like the Satanic Panic is, and you are overreacting to the situation by comparing the two.

You're belittling their feeling and sense of offense just with the words "Satanic Panic." To many people, demons, devils, tarot, etc. are not games and are offensive. Reducing their feelings to a few words that you can then easily dismiss is right in line with what you guys are arguing against with orcs.

Your argument comes across as "We should be worried only about offending people we agree with, and people who are offended that we don't agree with don't matter."

 

[Helldritch]

Yeah, I guess that makes me "no one".

But I'm weird, I actually read (well skim) the owners manuals for new cars.

Are you me?

First, the game didn't end in the Satanic Panic. Second, this won't end it either. The people complaining are the ones who like D&D and play it, this won't break the game. Stop pretending that this is the end of the world, and respond to the rest of my previous post quoting you.

1) You have been answered further down the thread without being quoted. Read on.

2) The game nearly ended in my area. Stores owners were coaxed by zealots into not offering the books anymore (there was no 100% Hobby stores at that time). It took me, to go to church (as a young teenager) to explain what the game was truly about. So yep, it did not ended but even TSR caved in and changed Devils and Demons because the treath was real.

In my area we were very lucky that I was both head of class and that I was also one of the rare altar sever that could answer the mass in latin. This gave me a lot more credential to the zealots and it appeased them (the other vocals about the hobby were in the heavy metal fashion whereas I was the perfect little boy every one wanted...) But it took more than one session of discussion and there were a few months in which we missed out on many products that TSR was getting out at the time. And it happened that we were not alone. We heard from other area where the game simply ceased for a few years until the panic finaly disapeared. I still don't know if the arrival of cable TV had anything to do with it...

This is also why I want my evil to be evil. No questions asked, it is easy and simple. Bad experiences with gray. Nearly lost the hobby. Been there, done that and suffered for it. I am very cautious of "offended" people where I see no reasons to be.


On an other note.
For evil orcs in the setting. Greyhawk is one of them. Yes, as stated earlier, Robilar had an orc servant, but Robilar was evil (again stated previously). The original D&D world campaign is also one of them.

 

[Catulle]

You're belittling their feeling and sense of offense just with the words "Satanic Panic." To many people, demons, devils, tarot, etc. are not games and are offensive. Reducing their feelings to a few words that you can then easily dismiss is right in line with what you guys are arguing against with orcs.

Your argument comes across as "We should be worried only about offending people we agree with, and people who are offended that we don't agree with don't matter."

I'm going with a charitable interpretation of what you're saying here, but the satanic panic was not about offensive content; it was about the whole-cloth fabrication of criminal activity attached by a powerful majority to a minority (in the case of D&D) and by the psychological manipulation of vulnerable women in a profoundly abusive pseudo-therapeutic environment (in the satanic abuse regression panic). It was about false allegations of criminal offences that never took place.

ETA: Between the two groups, the D&D crowd suffered far less long-term harm.

 

[Morrus]

Posters on one side of an issue are typically given much greater leeway in attacking and responding whereas posters on the other side have to walk on eggshells lest they be deemed offensive or a troll or banned. That has quite the chilling effect on truly open dialogue.

We are TIRED of this. Your snide little comments about moderation. It’s why we tookaway your ability to report posts. It’s why, the very next time you do it, we’ll take away your ability to post.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

You're belittling their feeling and sense of offense just with the words "Satanic Panic." To many people, demons, devils, tarot, etc. are not games and are offensive. Reducing their feelings to a few words that you can then easily dismiss is right in line with what you guys are arguing against with orcs.

Okay, so what if I found your profile picture offensive because I hate anime? Would that be a valid complaint? Do I have the right to tell you that you must change your profile pic because I don't like the specific thing depicted in it?

So, you would obviously defend your profile pic, argue with the person who demands change, and tell them that they're being unreasonable, right?

Now, this is similar to the Satanic Panic. The mere presence of Demons, Devils, and gods in D&D was offensive to the religious people, but it had no real base to their argument.

This is different from our argument. The fact that Vistani exist isn't offensive, the way that they're presented is.

There is a difference between this and the Satanic Panic. The Satanic Panic was people getting angry and unreasonable for no reason. This is us asking for change because we would prefer it that way as well as certain depictions being offensive to an existing people.

Your argument comes across as "We should be worried only about offending people we agree with, and people who are offended that we don't agree with don't matter."

My argument is "There are good ways to change, and this is a good way. The Satanic Panic was not reasonable, but this is."

 

[Cadence]

2) The game nearly ended in my area. Stores owners were coaxed by zealots into not offering the books anymore (there was no 100% Hobby stores at that time).

:-(

We were apparently lucky in northern Illinois - the two combination comic shop/game shops, game/model shop, and the various small toy stores in the malls in our city didn't seem to have changed anything. (The toy store in the mall had them on the left wall right as you walked in for many years).

 

[S'mon]

That's a very good point. I tend to avoid that language in general for exactly that reason, because it's hard to manage all the nuance needed to express the concept of people behaving monstrously.

That said, the greatest evil requires not just characterizing other people as monsters, but believing that monsters aren't people. And really, any kind of "those things aren't really people" will do it. Recognizing that the other people who are monsters are still people is very important.

Selectively denying that people are monsters only because they're like you, or part of your heritage, though, is a very important step towards being comfortable thinking that monsters aren't people. If you have to admit that "monsters" is a category which includes people you care about, you are going to be less comfortable with dismissing the humanity and rights of the "monsters".

People aren't monsters.

 

[Cadence]

People aren't monsters.

It feels like all the worst monsters are people. But trying to become the judge of which are might be one route to becoming one.