D&D 5E Am I too strict?

[Maxperson]

It's either inconsistent or it's handwaved to avoid making a player have to pay for leveling up and getting their class powers...

Then the DM should handwave several thousand gold pieces my cleric's way.

 

[Bolares]

Then the DM should handwave several thousand gold pieces my cleric's way.

Why?

What I'm saying is that the book purposefully ignores ink costs for these 2 spells because the designers didn't want to tax the player for their character's evolution. It's a choice favoring conviniency and ease of play over simulationism. Maybe it's not for your group, or the OP's group, that's fine, but it's not a bug, it's a feature.

 

[DND_Reborn]

FWIW, keep in mind that even with this house-rule, the new spells might not be available immediately as they are no longer "free" but more HP, spell slots, and other features might be gained. So personally, I would hardly consider this denying the wizard what he should gain from leveling, especially since it can be handled with foresight on the player's part and if the game is "rich enough" for the player to afford it generally.

 

[Helldritch]

Wait, why is he copying 4 spells?

He was in adventure. He rose from 1st to 2nd then from 2nd to 3rd. 4 spells total.

Edit: For clarification, you might not get your free spells in your book immediately, but you do have them prepared as flash of insight. This also means that you might have to unprepare some spells to make room for your insights but it is generaly a minor inconvenience.

 

[CleverNickName]

Do you have any idea how many, "5e has nothing to spend money on!" threads this place has seen?

To be fair, those threads are usually just complaints about buying/selling magic items.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Nah, nah, no please don't. I wrote a WORKING ECONOMY. D&D 5e (and every other edition) had NONE as per RAW.

First it would be 200 Silver in my case for the starting.
I did a working economy for my greyhawk campaign (and every other) but I go nothing like RAW.

I try to give you some examples from my in game pricelist on how to eventually do that:
I my games it is 1g is 20s is 240c to reflect some reality.
So in my campaign a stiletto is 10s a two handed sword is 100s.
A buffed armor (AC12) is 20s a breastplate is 100s a full plate is 800s and needs to be bodyfitted
A mage scroll is (Spell-level)^2 x 100s, so 100s for a level 1 scroll and 8100s for a level 9 scroll.
Those scrolls can be used for oneshot or copying into spellbook, I do not bother about ink and stuff it is minor expense.

You see now the fighter comes with 200s, so e.g. he can buy a two handed sword and a breastplate, and the wizard gets 2 level 1 scrolls for that dosh.

Of course you got to steer the treasure from the beginning, normally every humanoid drops a few silver e.g 1d6 for an orc.

I hope that clarifies it a bit what I mean

I'm not sure what most of that had to do with anything. And unless Helldritch is using your economy instead of the rules in the book, then my numbers are more accurate to what they are doing.

I think some people here are confusing paying for additional spells and paying for copying.
Bob the wizard is now third level. He has the chance to be in town.
He leveled in the field so now he wants to copy his new spells into his spellbook.
2 first level must be copied. It cost him 100 gold to get them down.
2 second level must be copied. Both are of his school so again 100 gold to get them down.

He wants to add a third spell second level spell. He goes to the local wizard that thought him magic and wants to add the blur spell to his spell book. Being a former apprentice, the wizard charge him 100 gold for the right of copying the spell. It costs an other 100 gold in inks.

Understood that just fine

And it goes both ways.
snip
Meanwhile, Tarkud the Fighter, pays for the repairs to his armor, shield and weapons (about 10% of their value). He buys new magical arrows and goes to the alchemist and apothecary to buy potions. He knows that Bob will make a few potions of fire resistance but he does not expect that Bob will have time to make a lot of them. Maybe two or three. So better check with the local alchemist. Healing potions are costly too but hey... At least they turned up a good profit on this adventure. The same goes with Albrecht the priest, and all the other characters. Everyone pays for something.

Okay, pause button.

So, you never mentioned that the Fighter is paying for repairs before, this does change things.

10% of the value. It looks like your group is still around level 3, so he likely has chainmail still (well, he shouldn't but we'll talk about that in a second)

So, making some number assumptions. Chainmail costs 7.5, shield costs 1, longsword 1.5, and longbow 5

Tarkud the Fighter has spent.... 15 gold on up keeping his equipment.
Bob the Wizard spent 200 just in copying his "free" spells.

In fact, Tarkud could have platemail which costs 150 to upkeep, giving a total of 157.5 gold and still be less.

Which is why he can buy magical arrows (new gear that isn't part of the upkeep) and potions. Which, while Bob can make if I assume you are going with the crafting rules, Bob is still spending money on.


Which, really starts getting ridiculous if we assume everyone has the same amount of gold.

Bob spent 400 gold between copying and buying one spell, assuming he isn't broke and can still afford to buy materials for potionmaking (which he will give to the party) he had to have somewhere between 500 and 600 gold, leaving him about 100 to spend on whatever he would like.

Now, my group tends to divide treasure evenly. Which means if Bob has 600 gold, then so does Tarduk. Who, assuming chainmail, has 585 gold to spend on whatever he would like. Which would of course be better armor, so he wouldn't pay for the repairs to his chain. Splint is 200, so he still has around 390 gold left for those magical arrows (buffing) and those potions (extras)

So, the wizard got a single new spell, and copied their class level up gains over, while Tarduk upgraded his equipment, bought magical items and potions to buff and heal, and is expecting more potions from Bob who is spending even more money on making Tardek better.

And, if every member of the party got at least 600 gold, that is 2,400 gold at 3rd level, and they'd likely invest in some plate.


And, let us jump ahead to the future of level 9. Where Bob is potentially spending 500 gp just to copy their spells they earned for free, and unless Tarduk is having to pay to maintain 5,000 gold worth of gear he is still paying pennies compared to Bob.

He was in adventure. He rose from 1st to 2nd then from 2nd to 3rd. 4 spells total.

Edit: For clarification, you might not get your free spells in your book immediately, but you do have them prepared as flash of insight. This also means that you might have to unprepare some spells to make room for your insights but it is generaly a minor inconvenience.

Um, an inconvenience?

Wizard's can't prepare a spell they don't have in their book, right? Per RAW, that would mean that unless they prepare these "insight" spells immediately and never un-prepare them they would lose them forever.

And since we are talking levels 2 and 3, where they only have likely 6 to 7 spells for prep, they are locking in over half their spells. That is more than a minor inconvenience.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Depends how much money that campaign tends to give out in treasure, I suppose, and what else there is (by the sound of it, little or nothing) to spend it on.

And yes, if the loss of funds is such a nuisance an enterprising wizard could (one would hope!) fairly easily find a way to sell access to her own spells to other wizards or trainees, to make the money back.

Yeah this is true, completely depends on how much loot they have. If they're already loaded this debate is kind of pointless.

Still, I really don't understand this campaign's "ink cost." Even if you're writing pages and pages of spells, you're not going to use much more than a couple of bottles of ink.

So even if this setting is a desert and ink is really rare, it's really weird to imagine someone walking up to a traveling merchant and saying "Hi, I'd like three bottles of ink!" and then dropping a big bag of gold coins in exchange. Hell HP would be jealous of prices like that (and HP has an ink monopoly for their printers!)

I'm not saying you can't have a world like that (DM rules), it just feels like a weird way to impose an extra cost on player's that feels more like a mechanical imposition than a realistic one.

Though the more I think about it, I kind of like the idea of a global cartel that limits the output of ink and therefore all writing, using that power to control transfer of information and shoring up its own money/power. A Facebook/HP amalgamation.

 

[Coroc]

I'm not sure what most of that had to do with anything. And unless Helldritch is using your economy instead of the rules in the book, then my numbers are more accurate to what they are doing.



Understood that just fine



Okay, pause button.

So, you never mentioned that the Fighter is paying for repairs before, this does change things.

10% of the value. It looks like your group is still around level 3, so he likely has chainmail still (well, he shouldn't but we'll talk about that in a second)

So, making some number assumptions. Chainmail costs 7.5, shield costs 1, longsword 1.5, and longbow 5

Tarkud the Fighter has spent.... 15 gold on up keeping his equipment.
Bob the Wizard spent 200 just in copying his "free" spells.

In fact, Tarkud could have platemail which costs 150 to upkeep, giving a total of 157.5 gold and still be less.

Which is why he can buy magical arrows (new gear that isn't part of the upkeep) and potions. Which, while Bob can make if I assume you are going with the crafting rules, Bob is still spending money on.


Which, really starts getting ridiculous if we assume everyone has the same amount of gold.

Bob spent 400 gold between copying and buying one spell, assuming he isn't broke and can still afford to buy materials for potionmaking (which he will give to the party) he had to have somewhere between 500 and 600 gold, leaving him about 100 to spend on whatever he would like.

Now, my group tends to divide treasure evenly. Which means if Bob has 600 gold, then so does Tarduk. Who, assuming chainmail, has 585 gold to spend on whatever he would like. Which would of course be better armor, so he wouldn't pay for the repairs to his chain. Splint is 200, so he still has around 390 gold left for those magical arrows (buffing) and those potions (extras)

So, the wizard got a single new spell, and copied their class level up gains over, while Tarduk upgraded his equipment, bought magical items and potions to buff and heal, and is expecting more potions from Bob who is spending even more money on making Tardek better.

And, if every member of the party got at least 600 gold, that is 2,400 gold at 3rd level, and they'd likely invest in some plate.


And, let us jump ahead to the future of level 9. Where Bob is potentially spending 500 gp just to copy their spells they earned for free, and unless Tarduk is having to pay to maintain 5,000 gold worth of gear he is still paying pennies compared to Bob.




Um, an inconvenience?

Wizard's can't prepare a spell they don't have in their book, right? Per RAW, that would mean that unless they prepare these "insight" spells immediately and never un-prepare them they would lose them forever.

And since we are talking levels 2 and 3, where they only have likely 6 to 7 spells for prep, they are locking in over half their spells. That is more than a minor inconvenience.

can't speak for helldritch i simply assumed he got a working economy in his game. With my game the economy works. The wizard never ran short so he couldn't get his level up allotment. At one point in the wild he could copy his level up spells from another wizard, so of course you got to plan for such situations, to not unbalance things i thought this to be self-evident sry if i assumed wrongly.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Why?

What I'm saying is that the book purposefully ignores ink costs for these 2 spells because the designers didn't want to tax the player for their character's evolution. It's a choice favoring conviniency and ease of play over simulationism. Maybe it's not for your group, or the OP's group, that's fine, but it's not a bug, it's a feature.

some folks have this mindset where if person A has more than person B, and someone proposes giving something to person B, they'll claim it's unfair unless you also give the same thing to person A.

 

[DND_Reborn]

some folks have this mindset where if person A has more than person B, and someone proposes giving something to person B, they'll claim it's unfair unless you also give the same thing to person A.

I suppose it depends on how and why person A has more than person B.