D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[MichaelSomething]

Ya'll remember the time people were calling 4th "anime"? I do...

 

[Panda-s1]

OP:
You need not be embarrassed. Thank you for speaking from your heart.

As to being frightened? I'm writing from the bottom of Page 1 and I already see folks preparing to cast Fireballs at each other (and maybe you). I understand your trepidation and reluctance. But you still are right to speak.

man I don't want to throw a fireball at him, he did some actual research and while I might not 100% agree with everyone's take they all bring up some very good points to consider when thinking about Asian stereotypes and racism. the people trying to drown out actual Asian opinions though...

Ya'll remember the time people were calling 4th "anime"? I do...

yeah I'm fuckin tired of "anime" being used as shorthand for "this is too exciting/stylized for my liking". I'm reminded of "this milk is too spicy" memes tbh. I was surprised to see people degrade Wayne Reynolds, one of my favorite fantasy artists, as being too anime, like are you kidding me?

 

[Charlaquin]

yeah I'm fuckin tired of "anime" being used as shorthand for "this is too exciting/stylized for my liking". I'm reminded of "this milk is too spicy" memes tbh. I was surprised to see people degrade Wayne Reynolds, one of my favorite fantasy artists, as being too anime, like are you kidding me?

Yeah, the “stylized = anime” nonsense makes my eyes roll so hard I can almost see my brain.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

If you’re so worried that removing OA from sale is going to harm people as the LGBTQIA community has been harmed by censorship, maybe explain who you think would be harmed and how instead of just drawing false equivalences.

No. Let me explain this one more time.

You came and completely missed the point. In effect, you said that a person defending a principle (freedom of expression) is, in effect, either racist, or doesn't understand what racism is.

Moreover, you denigrate the very real lives of other people by using loading jargon.

Do you know what is speaking real truth to power? It's not calling for banning a book because you think it's racist. It's supporting the rights of same-sex couples to adopt in the Deep South when the law is against them. It's speaking up and taking action to support a trans teen go to a prom when the school district won't recognize their identity. It's hearing people try to shout you down and deny you because ... they don't believe your speech has worth, because they have found some loophole.

So you fight. You fight because you know that there is a principle- that they cannot stop the speech, no matter how much they might disagree with it.

And you hold on that, that lodestar, that firmament of belief. Because you know it's right.

And in the end, you get the reward. You see equality win out, because you spoke for it. Because people like you didn't decide to silence people like me.

And you see it reflected in the game- that products in D&D now reflect all sorts of diversity, that things I could not imagine 40 years ago are now common, and that WoTC can release products that reflect a rich and varied tapestry of races, genders, and, yes, sexual orientations.

So I am not going to turn around and use the same tactics that were used against me. Free speech made lives better, and it will win out. It made the game better, and it made the world better. Because of this principle that you disparage, D&D and TTRPGs are so much more welcoming than they used to be.

That is all I have to say, and I am done with you and your censorship and your attempts to tar basic principles of free speech by equating it with censorship. Defending the rights of others to speak has never meant that you agree with what they are saying.

 

[Eric V]

I would not remove prior products because of it.

But I would not include Vistani that have stereotypes of the Roma without careful thought and consultation with someone familiar with those issues .... moving forward.

Why not?

If the current depictions of Roma are offensive to current people referenced and shouldn't be promulgated because of this fact why does an earlier publication date make such depictions ok?

 

[Mallus]

I'm still not sure what are the principles at play on the side arguing against taking down OA.

For me it’s not a question of principles, it’s that I don’t find OA racist. Sure, the name is anachronistic and more than a little tone deaf, with some ugly baggage. But that was true back when it released in the mid-1980s. So I think it’s long past time to rename OA, and as long the replacement isn’t something like Inscrutable Adventures, we’re good (and now the odds that I run a campaign parodying East Asian stereotypes called exactly that are better than 50/50).

There’s just no sting in Oriental Adventures, aside from the name that makes whoever‘s responsible for it sound like a cornfed dolt form the 1940s. I’ve experienced anti-Asian racism (being Asian/Pacific Islander/Caucasian). OA doesn’t feel like it.

 

[Umbran]

3 is logistical. I don't know the status on translations, but don't doubt that WotC would make it happen if if they thought the money was there.

It might be more complete to say they'd make it happen if the money and resources were there. They have a budget, and a set of personnel with particular skills and only 24 hours in a day, and that only goes so far - they have to pick and choose projects.

So, "if the money is there," can be a little bit deceiving. They may know that there's money to be had, but not have the resources to expend on getting it, or it gets beat out by something with a marginally larger expected profit, and so on.

 

[Charlaquin]

No. Let me explain this one more time.

You came and completely missed the point. In effect, you said that a person defending a principle (freedom of expression) is, in effect, either racist, or doesn't understand what racism is.

I’m sorry, when did I say any such thing?

Moreover, you denigrate the very real lives of other people by using loading jargon.

What jargon? I’ve been using pretty plain-English terms throughout this conversation.Saying what I mean in understandable terms is something I actively strive for.

Do you know what is speaking real truth to power? It's not calling for banning a book because you think it's racist. It's supporting the rights of same-sex couples to adopt in the Deep South when the law is against them. It's speaking up and taking action to support a trans teen go to a prom when the school district won't recognize their identity. It's hearing people try to shout you down and deny you because ... they don't believe your speech has worth, because they have found some loophole.

So you fight. You fight because you know that there is a principle- that they cannot stop the speech, no matter how much they might disagree with it.

And you hold on that, that lodestar, that firmament of belief. Because you know it's right.

And in the end, you get the reward. You see equality win out, because you spoke for it. Because people like you didn't decide to silence people like me.

What on earth are you talking about? It seems like you’re trying to suggest I don’t actively support LGBTQIA rights through meaningful praxis, but I don’t see how anything I’ve said would indicate that? I do, by the way.

And you see it reflected in the game- that products in D&D now reflect all sorts of diversity, that things I could not imagine 40 years ago are now common, and that WoTC can release products that reflect a rich and varied tapestry of races, genders, and, yes, sexual orientations.

Yeah, great, progress has been made and I am with you in celebrating that. There is still more work to be done though.

So I am not going to turn around and use the same tactics that were used against me. Free speech made lives better, and it will win out. It made the game better, and it made the world better. Because of this principle that you disparage, D&D and TTRPGs are so much more welcoming than they used to be.

I don’t disparage free speech at all. I get the impression that you are very confused about what positions I hold.

That is all I have to say, and I am done with you and your censorship and your attempts to tar basic principles of free speech by equating it with censorship.

When have I done any such thing?

Defending the rights of others to speak has never meant that you agree with what they are saying.

I don’t disagree with that.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

The vast majority of people agree that the world is round. Do the vast majority agree that D&D is built on colonialist assumptions?

(By the way, I personally think that D&D has colonialist assumptions, although my solution is less to get rid of those but to broaden the scope of the game, thus this thread).

Part of the problem with this line of thinking is that Gygax and Arneson and others who helped create the game are no longer around to explain or defend themselves, or to apologize, where appropriate. So Blackmoor or Greyhawk are just the way they are. But Ed Greenwood and Keith Baker and Jeff Grubb and Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weiss and other setting creators are still around and can explain/defend/apologize/change/fix their creations. Why do we not see any interviews or blog posts or anything from any of them? But seriously, why are they all silent right now? Or am I just missing their comments?

 

[Dire Bare]

Had anyone watched all 24 hours of this YouTube critique?

I'm assuming you are referencing the "Asians Read" series on the "Asians Represent Podcast" channel on YouTube. It's definitely a hefty time commitment if you want to take it all in, with over a dozen episodes on 1E "Oriental Adventures" alone with each episode clocking in at roughly 2 hours. The channel has also done some similar videos on 3E "Oriental Adventures" and some Legends of the 5 Rings books.

I couldn't get through the entire series, not due to any problems with the videos or commentary themselves, just that I don't have that kind of attention span. It's a lot to take in. The two main commentators, Daniel Kwan and "DM Steve" (not sure of last name) tend to ramble a lot (common in podcasts generally) and they take each book critiqued one paragraph at a time . . . . I would LOVE if these two guys produced a "summary" video on their opinions on the book, I'd watch that all the way through!!!

I'm really glad this content is out there and as I jumped around the first couple of episodes that focused on the races and classes in OA I appreciated hearing their opinions. It helped open my eyes and clarify my own thoughts and opinions on the book. It's worth checking out, even if like me you can't sit through two hours of rambling commentary on several pages . . .

I'm increasingly sad at the voices here on ENWorld who are dead set on dismissing and silencing the opinions of Asian Americans and Asian American gamers in order to hold onto their nostalgia for harmful, orientalist takes on Asian culture and mythology. Not all Asian Americans and Asians agree on what is and isn't harmful and offensive, heck, the various commentators on the "Asians Read" videos don't all agree on various points . . . . but it's clear that the book is highly problematic in how it treats Asian cultures.

I would love to hear more Asian American voices on this issue, so thanks to the OP of this thread for adding to that!

The video commentary in this series isn't perfect. The commentators leap to some conclusions due to their own lack of expertise on D&D itself and Asian mythology. That doesn't invalidate their opinions on the book in any way, but it was a bit frustrating. That's also not to say they aren't familiar with the game, or mythology. Both are nerds and well versed in American pop culture, both are D&D gamers, and both have academic expertise in culture and Asian studies, not that you need any of that to understand the problems in this book or to have an opinion on it.

It got me started in researching the origins of various "oriental" D&D races and creatures . . . and I found even more problems that those brought up in the podcast series!!! Trying to update OA in a respectful, sensitive, and somewhat accurate manner is going to be a HUGE task for whomever decides to take it on . . . .

EDIT: To add . . . . DM Steve goes out of his way to try and find the positive in 1E OA . . . and both he and Kwan find them! Neither commentator find the book all bad . . . just highly problematic and overall not a positive representation of Asian cultures for the D&D game.