D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Panda-s1]

I was dismissing the argument in the post I was responding to that moved the goal posts beyond people that game or would use the book to the world.

I said who cares what the world thinks about when almost none of the world cares about an RPG book. Focus instead on the people that use it and within that group, the people that would be offended.

it's a RPG book with that has a real world issue. I can show that book to someone who's never played RPGs before and they still might find it distasteful, and their distaste is still valid despite never playing RPGs in their life.

(I know someone's gonna chime in with the Satanic Panic argument, but that's not the same; virtually no one playing D&D at the time was advocating against it as a tool to practice satanism or recruit people into the occult. that's not the same here, people who actually play the game and are part of the community are accurately calling out something as problematic).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Especially BECAUSE our ethnicities are all mixing together it is necessary to make an effort to preserve different ways of being human. Otherwise, we will soon be one global monoculture of homogenization. A dystopia. We have to preserve our diverse humanity now. Before it vanishes.

Two things. One this sounds almost like ethnic nationalism. But two, how is someone in Pakistan borrowing tropes or cultural details for a fictional game based on Nepal or Cambodia, contributing to the extinction of cultures?

 

[Myrdin Potter]

closest I can think of is the Crusades book from the Historical Reference series. the description...doesn't seem promising, it makes mention of Europeans looking to the holy land, and Islam raising jihad against them, even as a supplement from a pre-9/11 time I'm like "oh no".

what does Sword World being the leading Japanese RPG have to do with anything? I'm pretty sure there's at least a few RPGs from Japan that have things like samurai and ninja as playable characters. also the default setting for Sword World is a typical JRPG setting, which is basically a highly fantastical version of your typical renaissance European setting, the omission of Asian themed classes isn't notable?

The easiest way to avoid issues on some historical time is to look for a variety of books. Including sources from the period (also in the attached picture). There is no perfection, though.

And my point on Sword World was an example of even in Japan, Japanese playing a local RPG don't need Asian themed classes. The counterpoint is that maybe people in the USA want to escape into fantasy and be an Asian themed character.

And as a story, one of my friends in Shanghai was an actor that made a good living being the token white guy in Chinese television shows and movies. And since I spend a lot of time in Nanjing, I saw double reinforced the Japanese are the villains.

 

[Bedrockgames]

(I know someone's gonna chime in with the Satanic Panic argument, but that's not the same; virtually no one playing D&D at the time was advocating against it as a tool to practice satanism or recruit people into the occult. that's not the same here, people who actually play the game and are part of the community are accurately calling out something as problematic).

But this is what people find somewhat alarming about recent trends. Before it was folks who didn't understand RPGs speaking against them because they argued they were powerful tools that could open pathways to the devil or open pathways to mental instability. But now we essentially have people in the hobby making this kind of argument about games. I think a lot of people, myself included, simply don't think games have that kind of power (at least not unless you give them that power over yourself).

 

[ccs]

There are some general rules that seem to work well.
• Dont borrow from another culture, unless you feel intimate with that culture.
• Absolutely dont use reallife names, unless it is historically/mythologically accurate.

So what if I feel intimate with it - but you don't think I'm intimate enough with it?

On names - so... you'd prefer I just make up gibberish?
That'd be less insulting than me giving a Japanese inspired character in a fantasy world an actual Japanese name? (apologies when I likely mangle the pronunciation though) And even if I used a historical/mythlogical name I'm certain I won't be using it in that context.

 

[Haldrik]

Would you also suggest not using names like 'cleric' or 'paladin' if their (European) Christian context is removed, ie the way everyone uses those classes.


Inaccuracy isn't automatically critique. Or automatically disrespectful, for that matter. All I can think of is the overwhelming amount of the Asian popular culture I'm familiar fails to meet the standard you're trying to sketch out.

Gone would be Steven Chow's gonzo cartoon Buddhism in Journey to the West, the Zatoichi series and it's lovely & terrible gangster-and-ronin-choked Japan, gone too the most luminous kung-fu epic Touch of Zen, and all of Evangelion, for God's sake. I could keep writing this list for days.

Some words are ambiguous. Like "paladin". On the one hand, the word is an extremely specific identity in European history, relating to Charles the Great. On the other hand, it is a normal part of the English language to mean any kind of heroic defender of a cause, somewhat synonymous to "champion" (also a specific historical custom).

The D&D Paladin seems a less recognizable amalgum of both of these meanings.

As far as I know, the term "cleric" is a neutral term that applies to any "clergy", whether Catholic, Muslim, or Wiccan. The term "priest" is actually specific, to mean someone who performs ceremonies in a "temple", but then this temple is sometimes a more abstract concept. I would never use the term priest for a shaman, for example. But I might refer to a shaman as a cleric, maybe. Probably not, but it could happen. All rabbis are clerics, but not all clerics are rabbis. All priests are clerics, but not all clerics are priests. All imams are clerics, but not all clerics are imams. Etcetera.



I am trying to imagine a historically accurate setting, that focuses on "crusaders" versus "jihadists". It seems like it could be interesting, even informative to all of the relevant reallife cultures today. But. Can anyone imagine WotC publishing such a setting?

Creating a D&D class called "crusader" or "jihadist" ... how could this possibly go right?

Inaccuracy isn't automatically critique. Or automatically disrespectful, for that matter. All I can think of is the overwhelming amount of the Asian popular culture I'm familiar fails to meet the standard you're trying to sketch out.

Inaccuracy is automatically concerning.



Asian pop culture is sometimes guilty of using analogous racist tropes too.

No one is immune from bad behavior.

 

[Haldrik]

The Bard hasn't been Celtic since 1e. It's been an English Minstrel in all but name since 2e made it a real class.

That is why I specified the 5e Bard. You can use this class to build a decent "Merlin" or "Taliesin" character, for example.


[Also]

Perhaps early D&D had "Shakespeare the Bard" in mind?

Anyway, I am personally happy with the 5e Bard.

 

[Panda-s1]

The easiest way to avoid issues on some historical time is to look for a variety of books. Including sources from the period (also in the attached picture). There is no perfection, though.

okay first of all it's laughable to assume everyone is gonna go out of there way to read other books about the game they're about to play. I know some people are HUGE NERDS about D&D and making their settings, but that's not everyone.

And my point on Sword World was an example of even in Japan, Japanese playing a local RPG don't need Asian themed classes. The counterpoint is that maybe people in the USA want to escape into fantasy and be an Asian themed character.

1) that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, 2) it just so happens that the D&D brand of fantasy caught on in Japan, so much so that the genre as presented by games like D&D and Wizardry became the standard for Japanese fantasy stories. today your typical fantasy setting from a manga might barely resemble a medieval European society, but the underpinnings are still obvious.

same for us, D&D is still an American game, but it's not like the omission of classes like cowboy* and superhero** in a European-themed fantasy game is a huge issue to American gamers, and yet there are many RPGs covering both genres.

And as a story, one of my friends in Shanghai was an actor that made a good living being the token white guy in Chinese television shows and movies. And since I spend a lot of time in Nanjing, I saw double reinforced the Japanese are the villains.

I mean if he's cool with it, more power to him. if he wants less trivial roles, then that sucks. but to put things into perspective, imagine being an Asian American actor in a community that's been around for over a century, but the only role you can reasonably hope for is "token Asian guy" and you still might be passed over for someone not at all remotely Asian. and even if you do get the role you have to sit with the fact that it might not advance your career, meanwhile somebody else might get a lesser part that starts them down the path to stardom. up until recently this has been the case for most Asian Americans, and the existence of actors like George Takei and Lucy Liu doesn't change this fact.

*I guess AD&D does mention crossing over with Boot Hill, but that's considered weird even by what the book itself says.
**yes, I know in Chainmail you could have a unit called "Super hero", you can't gotcha me.

But this is what people find somewhat alarming about recent trends. Before it was folks who didn't understand RPGs speaking against them because they argued they were powerful tools that could open pathways to the devil or open pathways to mental instability. But now we essentially have people in the hobby making this kind of argument about games. I think a lot of people, myself included, simply don't think games have that kind of power

okay so, let me get this straight. someone like you who is in the RPG community didn't think the game had problems, but now that others in the community are pointing out problems you're worried? "I think a lot of people, myself included, simply don't think games have that kind of power" did it ever occur to you that maybe you're wrong? that maybe a game that you enjoy that caters to people like you might not be as good when viewed on the inside with a different perspective?

EDIT: I want to emphasize I'm not explicitly saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out that you aren't apparently willing to accept the idea that differing views from other gamers are possibly valid.

(at least not unless you give them that power over yourself).

sorry, no, that's not how that works. if someone calls me a g**k or a ch*nk (or also in my particular case a b**ner as well) I don't get to decide whether or not it's an insult, it was already decided by the person who called me that. that's not how that works.

 

[Mercurius]

How do we transmit our diversity to future generations of humans?

That's a huge question and one that I don't think anyone can answer, especially considering we'll only know how we succeeded--and failed--after the fact.

Some homogenization is unavoidable. But I think we can try to steer away from a homogenization that mushes everything together, towards a harmonious exchange and inter-mixing. The cliche, but appropriate, "unity in diversity" comes to mind.

If we're going to go to big ideas, we're clearly in the process of becoming a planetary civilization, and all that it entails, or what is called a Type I civilization on the Kardashev Scale. People have speculated that most civilizations don't make it -- they destroy themselves (and each other). Some even think we've already come close in our distant past, but failed.

To get there, I think we need to solve two main problems: our footprint on the Earth (energy consumption, pollution, etc), and how to live harmoniously together. An aspect of the latter is the larger issue of which this comparatively tiny little issue in RPGs is a microcosm of. How do we integrate diverse peoples and worldviews, while evolving towards worldviews that are ever more condusive to inclusivity, freedom, and equality? Part of the problem is that most people emphasize one element over the other; in the context of American politics, this often takes the form of proxy debates about liberty vs. equality. Taken on that level, it is self-evident that both are important; the trick is how to harmonize the two.

In RPGs: how to we be as inclusive as possible, while also emphasizing individual freedom and creativity?

I think "transmitting our diversity to future generations" involves honoring the many and varied unique traditions, but also sharing them, recognizing that human culture doesn't "belong" to anyone, but are flavors of who we all are. Culture isn't static but ever-changing. It is more a matter of flavor than distinct forms, which are cultural artifacts. I imagine a future in which we are all our own self-creating and unique cultures, as individuals. To some degree that is already true.

RPGs are a microcosm of all of this. The way forward, in my opinion, is both through honoring different cultures and traditions, but also open and free creativity. I think it is possible to do both.

 

[Haldrik]

I think we are reaching a point with this, where however well-intentioned, people are making it so no one even wants to venture outside their own culture or knowledge. Is this kind of response to someone being innacruate about something encouraging anyone to explore other cultures? I see this attitude a lot these days and I think it does a lot more to stop people form wanting to learn. It also creates a bar for creative efforts, where things always have to be 100% accurate and can't be changed or reimagined outside their original culture. I don't see that as healthy for anyone

The thing is, many D&D gamers do want to learn. So presenting false misrepresentative information can be counterproductive. Especially, if the appropriation is insulting or profane.