D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Aldarc]

But I might want to run my 1E game in an Asian setting. Why should a poster on twitter be the one who decides for us all whether we can have access to the one big official Asian setting and rules book TSR put out during 1E?

Kwan is no more the one deciding for us all than a guy who designs OSR wuxia games is deciding that exploiting other cultures is perfectly okay in the name of art. Kwan is merely one person who is adding his voice to the conversation about D&D and its playerbase's relationship with OA and orientalist racism.

Why? Why can't you borrow bits of culture, regardless of how well you understand them? I mean there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Why does fictional media or games have a responsibility to be accurate to culture. One of the things that makes art interesting, and makes it something that can go beyond cultural boundaries, is that people can take inspiration from anything. I think this new taboo around appropriation is extremely misguided, however well intentioned. People get things wrong about culture all the time. Sometimes that produces terrible art, sometimes it produces new and interesting art. I think the problem really is people expecting anthropology, religion and history lessons from game books. Some game books will be about providing accurate information, and if that is the case, obviously they should strive for accuracy. But if I am playing a game loosely inspired by some legend, I am not expecting everything in there to 100% reflect the source material (even if it using similar names).

I think that this is exceptionally easy to say from a position of privilege, but IME it also comes across as incredibly tone deaf and it sounds like you want the carte blanche ability to exploit the cultures of others without any thought or impunity while hiding behind the shield of "it's art," which ignores that even among the art world this discussion on the appropriate and responsible use of other cultures is transpiring. Seriously, your statement reads less like a praise of cultural influences in art and more like a desire for NAFTA-style exploitation of other cultures without being concerned about tariffs.

 

[Immeril]

On names - so... you'd prefer I just make up gibberish?
That'd be less insulting than me giving a Japanese inspired character in a fantasy world an actual Japanese name? (apologies when I likely mangle the pronunciation though) And even if I used a historical/mythlogical name I'm certain I won't be using it in that context.

I'm only presuming, but I think Haldrik meant the names of people that actually existed. There's a difference between giving a character the surname 'Yamauchi' and naming a character 'Hattori Hanzō'.

I mean if he's cool with it, more power to him. if he wants less trivial roles, then that sucks. but to put things into perspective, imagine being an Asian American actor in a community that's been around for over a century, but the only role you can reasonably hope for is "token Asian guy" and you still might be passed over for someone not at all remotely Asian. and even if you do get the role you have to sit with the fact that it might not advance your career, meanwhile somebody else might get a lesser part that starts them down the path to stardom. up until recently this has been the case for most Asian Americans, and the existence of actors like George Takei and Lucy Liu doesn't change this fact.

sorry, no, that's not how that works. if someone calls me a g**k or a ch*nk (or also in my particular case a b**ner as well) I don't get to decide whether or not it's an insult, it was already decided by the person who called me that. that's not how that works.

Unfortunately, typecasting isn't limited to being the token Asian/black. Consider how fortunate Michael Keaton was to land the part of Bruce Wayne in Batman, or Sergi López in El laberinto del fauno. For every success story there exists one where an artist wasn't able to escape typecasting.
Also, I can only make out 1 of those 3 slurs, but I guess I don't really want to know what the others are. It's saddening to realise how 'creative or diverse' people can be.

The thing is, many D&D gamers do want to learn. So presenting false misrepresentative information can be counterproductive. Especially, if the appropriation is insulting or profane.

Is a D&D book really the best place to learn this stuff though? I have no problem with some RPG books making an effort to be accurate and informative. But they don't all need to be. There is a place for pastiche, for historical romance, for gonzo off the wall mishmash of different flavors from cultures. Straight forward accuracy can definitely work but so can these other approaches. Some RPG books are meant to be fun and entertaining and may want to approach these kinds of cultural details lightly. I think when it comes to appropriation I just don't find it a convincing concept. Obviously if a book is engaging in blatantly insulting stereotypes or something that is one thing. But that is very different from borrowing from a culture an re-imagining cultural content in a new light.

It wouldn't be that large of an effort for the writers to add a 'suggested reading' list at the end of a book. It was included in 5e PHB.

I am not English, but it annoys me that UK "devolution" allows Scotland and Wales to have their own ethnic autonomy, but not England. Fair is fair. Identity is worth saving.

I never got that when my college professor informed us that there's no such thing as a devolved English parliament. To me, this implies that England still sees itself as being better than Scotland/Wales.

But there is a big difference between "This book should be available so everyone can decide for themselves if it is okay to use and read", versus "This book should be taken down because I have decided it is too morally and for people to use and read".

The subtle difference between dismissing someone's opinion (which is totally valid) and silencing that person.

 

[amethal]

I never got that when my college professor informed us that there's no such thing as a devolved English parliament. To me, this implies that England still sees itself as being better than Scotland/Wales.

The UK is a very centralised state. The central government only devolves power when it absolutely has to (and is quite willing to grab it back again if necessary). A devolved English parliament would be too much of a rival, although there could possibly be a dozen or so regional parliaments one day.

And for the record, there is no such thing as a devolved Welsh parliament either. There's a reason why the Welsh Assembly is called what it is

 

[Immeril]

The UK is a very centralised state. The central government only devolves power when it absolutely has to (and is quite willing to grab it back again if necessary). A devolved English parliament would be too much of a rival, although there could possibly be a dozen or so regional parliaments one day.

And for the record, there is no such thing as a devolved Welsh parliament either. There's a reason why the Welsh Assembly is called what it is

The logo would beg to differ. Call it what you want, but the fact remains that both Wales and Scotland have a unicameral, democratically elected legislature, with the authority to pass bills concerning matters such as health, agriculture and education. It doesn't matter which matters are out of their legislative competence.
Concerning England, these same matters remain with the UK Parliament. Now to me (but I can be mistaken), the fact that English politicians don't feel the need for a devolved English parliament implies that they see the UK as essentially being England.

 

[Remathilis]

To make a game for your own gaming group around your dining table? Who is going to know?

For a corporation to publish a game, or even a fan-fic group that goes viral? Yes, it matters.

Other peoples cultures matter. One might take ones own culture for granted, but it too matters.

Ok, there is a small family rest in my hometown. Owners are Greek, like immigrant Greek. They serve traditional American fair, as well a some Greek specialty like gyros and saganaki. However, they also have quesadillas, spaghetti and stir fry, and I'm pretty sure they don't have and culinary training in Mexican, Italian or Chinese cuisine. Should they be able to sell these dishes that are not authentic to the public?

 

[Catolias]

Culture does belong to someone else if it isnt ones own culture. Borrowing from it can be sensitive.

For example, if a movie has a gay character, and the character falls in love and has a happy ending, then the movie is telling me, my identity, that I have a right to have good life. If a movie has a gay character as a main character, then the movie is recognizing me, my identity, my heroism. If a movie has a gay character, then kills that character, then the movie is killing me, my identity. If a movie has a gay character, and treats the character in a humiliating way, then the movie is humiliating me, my identity. Expect a response.

How is it any different, if a movie has a Japanese character, and the character is ridiculous?

Culture does need to be sensitively treated and respected. I agree with you that diverse representation is needed.

The problem, though, is how can we ensure culture is sensitivity and respectfully treated and we see diverse representation when there is nothing that helps guide someone?

But from what I can see, I’m not assured that removal achieves a more sensitive and respectful approach to different cultures.

First, it presumes individuals have the time and inclination to conduct a cultural sensitivity analysis of the fantasyworld they are creating.

Secondly, if I don’t help someone to learn by giving them the tools, doesn’t that mean I’m complicit in allowing racism? By accepting that I am willing to accept someone playing their home game with racist tropes, then I am also accepting that that same person can perpetuate the type of explicit and casual racism others have mentioned in this thread. Reading guides are one step, but may act as a deterrent for the reason above - time and inclination.

Finally, having WotC remove OA helps them avoid responsibility for correcting their errors. Removal is an easy answer to a complex problem and one that WotC will happily take given they have shown little interest in providing updates or new sourcebooks for the worlds it’s players have asked for - Darksun, Spelljammer, Greyhawk.

WotC really should be made to reissue an updated book. This would do more to correct misappropriation than removing the book will ever do. And while they’re at it, WotC could expand “Asia” to include the diversity of all that continent’s regions, not just one seen limited to Sho’gun Japan or Imperial Han China.

 

[amethal]

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The logo would beg to differ.

I hadn't actually realised they'd changed the English version of the name last year. So I should have said there's a reason why it was called the Welsh Assembly for the first 20-odd years of its existence.

It doesn't matter which matters are out of their legislative competence.

It matters to me, although a fair bit of progress has been made over the years.

Now to me (but I can be mistaken), the fact that English politicians don't feel the need for a devolved English parliament implies that they see the UK as essentially being England.

I dunno. Maybe we could ask an English person?

Although this is way off topic.

 

[amethal]

WotC really should be made to reissue an updated book. This would do more to correct misappropriation than removing the book will ever do.

That's just bizarre.

I'd rather you burned the darn thing if the alternative is forcing the authors to re-write it so it was more to your liking. (Okay, publishers rather than authors in this case.)

 

[Bedrockgames]

Kwan is no more the one deciding for us all than a guy who designs OSR wuxia games is deciding that exploiting other cultures is perfectly okay in the name of art. Kwan is merely one person who is adding his voice to the conversation about D&D and its playerbase's relationship with OA and orientalist racism.

My issue isn't with the critique. I have said many times that I watched the youtube channel, and I think the conversation they are having is healthy. My issue is with the call he made for WOTC to take down OA. Which, is one person deciding for others what they should have access to.

 

[Immeril]

I hadn't actually realised they'd changed the English version of the name last year. So I should have said there's a reason why it was called the Welsh Assembly for the first 20-odd years of its existence.

It matters to me, although a fair bit of progress has been made over the years.

I dunno. Maybe we could ask an English person?

Although this is way off topic.

Because calling it an assembly implies that it is part of a bicameral legislature? I'm asking because, since English isn't my native language, I'm not always familiar with the connotation.

Of course it matters. I only meant that it doesn't matter when verifying whether it meets the criteria of a devolved parliament.

And I agree that we seem to have veered off course.