D&D General (Anecdotal) conversations with Asian gamers on some problems they currently face in the D&D world of RPG gaming

[Bedrockgames]

okay so, let me get this straight. someone like you who is in the RPG community didn't think the game had problems, but now that others in the community are pointing out problems you're worried? "I think a lot of people, myself included, simply don't think games have that kind of power" did it ever occur to you that maybe you're wrong? that maybe a game that you enjoy that caters to people like you might not be as good when viewed on the inside with a different perspective?

No, this is not what I said at all. And yes it has occurred to me that I am wrong (has it occurred to you that you might be wrong, or overstating things?). I always try to consider the possibility that I am wrong. But I also have a pretty high bar for accepting peoples' arguments about this stuff. And you are missing the point of what I am saying. I am not saying I am worried about people saying they find things problematic in the game. As I said many times in this thread, people criticizing OA is fine. I think them putting up those videos of OA is perfectly healthy for discussion. Where I draw the line is people asking for content to be controlled or taken down. I draw the line at people saying "X is now not even allowable because I have decided this for everyone." And in this case, in this thread, but also elsewhere online, the argument around the subject of censoring content has shifted to the argument that it is somehow necessary because RPGs are uniquely dangerous, and not at all like other forms of media. That is the argument I was responding to in this post, and that was the point I was trying to make. I am worried that people are so concerned about content they find problematic, that they are approaching it with the same kind of rhetoric we used to hear from the religious right during the Satanic panic. Which was something like RPGs are uniquely powerful and potentially dangerous media and therefore we need to control RPG content more. That is the critique I am saying people find alarming.

sorry, no, that's not how that works. if someone calls me a g**k or a ch*nk (or also in my particular case a b**ner as well) I don't get to decide whether or not it's an insult, it was already decided by the person who called me that. that's not how that works.

I don't understand the connection here. What does my statement about games not having power over you unless you allow them to have power over you, in any way connect with someone using racial slurs against you? We are talking about the influence media has on real life behavior. And I am saying, RPGs are not brainwashing people. We are not mindlessly consuming them, and we don't need a priest caste to protect us from potentially difficult, problematic or challenging content. That is all.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The thing is, many D&D gamers do want to learn. So presenting false misrepresentative information can be counterproductive. Especially, if the appropriation is insulting or profane.

Is a D&D book really the best place to learn this stuff though? I have no problem with some RPG books making an effort to be accurate and informative. But they don't all need to be. There is a place for pastiche, for historical romance, for gonzo off the wall mishmash of different flavors from cultures. Straight forward accuracy can definitely work but so can these other approaches. Some RPG books are meant to be fun and entertaining and may want to approach these kinds of cultural details lightly. I think when it comes to appropriation I just don't find it a convincing concept. Obviously if a book is engaging in blatantly insulting stereotypes or something that is one thing. But that is very different from borrowing from a culture an re-imagining cultural content in a new light. I think if we continue in this direction of having rigid rules about how you can use culture in art, games, etc; we are going to end up in a very bad place, where people are no longer really exchanging culture and where art is less vibrant. I am just not finding this whole approach healthy or conducive to people truly connecting with one another and with stepping outside their own culture.

 

[Haldrik]

To be fair, we can toss them on the pile with assassin, barbarian, bard, druid, monk, witch, and warlord in the "classes with problematic names" list.

For example, take the word "witch". The English language has used this word for centuries to mean different things. Even when being demonized (literally), there were still examples of "good witches" that defied the demonization.

If I was going to use the term "witch" for a class. ... Maybe I would pick three very different mythologically accurate kinds of witches. Maybe a 1600s Scottish fairy-themed Witch, a German devil-themed Witch, an Icelandic psychic-themed Witch. Something like that. These three authentic examples would set the tone and context for other kinds of newly invented witches.

Alternatively I would use the term "witch" in the broadest sense, then create neologisms to qualify it, like "cyberwitch", or whatever, to intentionally disconnect it from any specific historical meanings.

 

[Haldrik]

I know you mean well, but do you know how close this comes to the "14 Words" rhetoric? Perservation of culture against one-world homogenization is the heart of that movement. This is shaky ground; I recommend you tread carefully.

Dont know anything about that.



I care about archeology and have some interest in ethnography. I find hope to know that places like Israel and Ireland have been able to rescue successfully their aboriginal languages.

I am not English, but it annoys me that UK "devolution" allows Scotland and Wales to have their own ethnic autonomy, but not England. Fair is fair. Identity is worth saving.

 

[Panda-s1]

No, this is not what I said at all. And yes it has occurred to me that I am wrong (has it occurred to you that you might be wrong, or overstating things?). I always try to consider the possibility that I am wrong. But I also have a pretty high bar for accepting peoples' arguments about this stuff. And you are missing the point of what I am saying. I am not saying I am worried about people saying they find things problematic in the game. As I said many times in this thread, people criticizing OA is fine. I think them putting up those videos of OA is perfectly healthy for discussion. Where I draw the line is people asking for content to be controlled or taken down. I draw the line at people saying "X is now not even allowable because I have decided this for everyone." And in this case, in this thread, but also elsewhere online, the argument around the subject of censoring content has shifted to the argument that it is somehow necessary because RPGs are uniquely dangerous, and not at all like other forms of media. I am worried that people are so concerned about content they find problematic, that they are approaching it with the same kind of rhetoric we used to hear from the religious right during the Satanic panic. Which was something like RPGs are uniquely powerful and potentially dangerous media and therefore we need to control RPG content more. That is the critique I am saying people find alarming.

so others can't speak for everyone but you can? you're advocating that X should always be allowable and deciding this for everyone. also it's not like Kwan is alone in calling for WotC to remove OA, a number of people want it to happen.

I don't understand the connection here. What does my statement about games not having power over you unless you allow them to have power over you, in any way connect with someone using racial slurs against you? We are talking about the influence media has on real life behavior. And I am saying, RPGs are not brainwashing people. We are not mindlessly consuming them, and we don't need a priest caste to protect us from potentially difficult, problematic or challenging content. That is all.

first of all you weren't that specific, and "letting things have power over you" is a very common argument when people talk about things like slurs.

but also are you really of the opinion that media has no influence over others? really? a lot of people watch movies and talk about how it inspired them, or made them feel sad, or even change their minds about politics or some other issue. RPGs aren't any different, virtually everyone plays RPGs to have fun, but some of those people also use RPGs to try and see things from a different perspective, or explore things like gender, or, pertinent to the issue at hand, try and imagine what it was like in a certain time in history.

 

[Bedrockgames]

EDIT: I want to emphasize I'm not explicitly saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out that you aren't apparently willing to accept the idea that differing views from other gamers are possibly valid.

I want to be clear about this: you have a right to your views about games. I don't think there is anything invalid about you having views different from mine. However, we don't have to agree. Just because you express a view, that doesn't mean I automatically have to say your argument is valid. I am never going to tell you not to give your honest opinion. I like people giving their honest opinion about things. But if you express an opinion that reminds me of stuff I used to hear from the religious right back in the 80s, I think it is fair for me to point that out. Doesn't mean you have to agree. Doesn't mean I think there is no chance I am wrong. But in a conversation with different points of view, we are going to have moments like this. It doesn't mean I am unwilling to accept your position could be correct. I understand enough about the world to know I don't know everything. But have you considered the possibility I might be correct, or that my viewpoint my be grounded in real life experience that produced some amount of wisdom? Again, you don't have to agree, I could be wrong. However, I am not saying these things to be a jerk. I am saying them because I have seen how censorious behavior played out in the past and I have concerns about how it is playing out in the hobby today. If I didn't voice those concerns, I would be engaging you in a dishonest way. I think we can disagree about this and still be respectful of one another.

 

[Haldrik]

A valid point worth repeating.

We can make characters based off tropes from Asian media and have fun with them, it's when we start portraying Asian culture at large where it becomes concerning.

 

[Bedrockgames]

so others can't speak for everyone but you can? you're advocating that X should always be allowable and deciding this for everyone. also it's not like Kwan is alone in calling for WotC to remove OA, a number of people want it to happen.

But there is a big difference between "This book should be available so everyone can decide for themselves if it is okay to use and read", versus "This book should be taken down because I have decided it is too morally and for people to use and read".

Nothing about this means I am speaking for others. I am just saying, I don't trust one person, or a small group of people, to make that call for everyone else. I think it is entirely possible for two reasonable and good people to look at a book like OA and react in totally different ways. And I think there is a very big spectrum of reaction. It doesn't have to be a dichotomy between embracing everything that OA stands for, and rejecting OA entirely.

 

[Haldrik]

Do you realize you're arguing against the existence of Hamilton, sir?
Well I've got some friendly words for you, sir.
(okay so I'm stealing them from Burr)
Talk less, smile more
Don't stake out a position that throws good works out the door!
(though in your defense a certain work about the Orient
Might not make the cut and get cut out from the store)

Actually, Hamilton, and other misrepresentations of reallife history are concerning.

On the one hand, in context, Hamilton is obviously fantasy romp thru history. There is room for "What If" in historical fiction, especially when making a respectful critique.

On the other hand, if we as Americans saw nothing except false versions of reallife history, then we would be living in the nightmarish 1984 dystopia. A nightmare that seems increasingly credible.

 

[Bedrockgames]

first of all you weren't that specific, and "letting things have power over you" is a very common argument when people talk about things like slurs.

To be clear here, I was not talking about slurs. I am not a fan of people using those kinds of slurs at all.

but also are you really of the opinion that media has no influence over others? really? a lot of people watch movies and talk about how it inspired them, or made them feel sad, or even change their minds about politics or some other issue. RPGs aren't any different, virtually everyone plays RPGs to have fun, but some of those people also use RPGs to try and see things from a different perspective, or explore things like gender, or, pertinent to the issue at hand, try and imagine what it was like in a certain time in history.

No, I am not saying media has zero influence. I am saying people are exaggerating its influence and they are absolving people of responsibility by shifting everything to media content. And keep in mind, not everybody uses games that way. Some people just use them to have fun.

Of course RPGs are different. They produce an immersive experience. But you still have moral responsibility when you do that. And you are not a slave to that immersion. You still have control of your thoughts and actions. Maybe part of this is I grew up in a different generation when we were living in a world that was loosening restrictions around censorship (and most of us had parents were believed in the power of free speech, free expression, and trusted that it was better for people to be able to determine for themselves whether a book or movie was valid and wholesome). We also grew up in a time when a lot of media was misunderstood and presented as morally questionable. It wasn't just the satanic panic, but we also had the PMRC trying to control music. I don't want designers avoiding making interesting choices because it might be read a certain way (particularly if the negative reading wasn't what they intended with what they did). I think art, games and media are better when artists are not restrained by a fear of being labeled immoral. Sometimes art, games and movies need to be transgressive. And we are living in a time when people are tightening the boundaries of what transgression is allowable. The language around it has changed. We are focused on different aspects of morality. But to me, it seems strikingly similar to the stuff I used to hear from the religious right and from the PMRC.