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WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

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MGibster

Legend
What might be wrong with this picture and why might someone with a Chinese cultural background find this photo harmful or objectionable? I'll give you time to think and answer.

Your point is well taken. It'd be like Canada being represented by an anthropomorphic eagle. If we had a long and sordid history with Canada.

But are forks and spoons on the weapon charts for Occidental Adventures? Or how about frying pans? Using frying pans as a weapon is a trope that we see in films like Indiana Jones (Marion), Tangled (Rapunzel), and Lord of the Rings (Samwise Gamgee).

I'd be surprised if a frying pan wasn't statted somewhere in the hundreds of D&D products over the years.


To be honest, I think the majority if not all of Bruce Lee movies count as American made and not Chinese, and in fact they had their share of criticism in the past and present.]/quote]

You can find Lee's filmography on Wikipedia. Most of Lee's movies were produced in Hong Kong, and his most famous movie, Enter the Dragon, was a joint production between Hollywood and Hong Kong.
 

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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think you are missing the point here. There is nothing inherently racist about a pastiche.

And, if the conversation has led anyone to think that was the issue, then the conversation got lost.

As said elsewhere - if folks of European descent want to put European culture and myth in a blender, that's probably okay, in that they have some sort of stake in that culture, and are treated moderately well by dominant culture now. For folks to European descent to put another culture and its myths in a blender, and make money off it, while at the same time have their dominant culture treat the other culture badly... that's a problem.
 

As Spanish I dare to say Latin-speaker countries have got a really rich folkloric mythology about faes and not only the classic Grecoroman myths. Eastern Europe folklore also has got a lot of things would very cool to be added to D&D lore.

I guess we will not see a return of Kara-tur yet, but a new adaptation of a plane of Magic: the Gathering, really various. One based in China, other in Japan, and other in Korea and other Asian cultures. The goal would be to allow 3PPs to create or to add their own (no-canon) ideas to these settins. These being separated to avoid controversies among the fans of Japanese Manga, Chinese manhua and Korean manhwa. You can bet they will tell their stories about their "favorite sport team" being the good guys and the others the villains.
 


Danzauker

Adventurer
And, if the conversation has led anyone to think that was the issue, then the conversation got lost.

As said elsewhere - if folks of European descent want to put European culture and myth in a blender, that's probably okay, in that they have some sort of stake in that culture, and are treated moderately well by dominant culture now. For folks to European descent to put another culture and its myths in a blender, and make money off it, while at the same time have their dominant culture treat the other culture badly... that's a problem.

The point where I don't agree is that it SHOULD be a problem.

And I don't agree with the line of thought where one thing can be condoned if someone belongs to a specific culture, be it called "dominant" or not, and chastized if he belongs to another. sounds too much "we are all equal but tome are more equal than others" for my tastes.

Besides, where do we draw the line for "European descent"? What if all American Europeans are only American to me? How many generations should pass before one is considered fully American? Is there a minimun times a year he must visit and stay in his "ancestral homeland" in order not to loose the status? Does bearing a surname like LaGuardia suffice to be called American Italian, even if you don't know the language except a couple words your granma taught you?

Frankly, most Americans I've met, including American Italian are more disconnected and ignorant of Italian culture than, say, a French or Spanish...
 

And, if the conversation has led anyone to think that was the issue, then the conversation got lost.

As said elsewhere - if folks of European descent want to put European culture and myth in a blender, that's probably okay, in that they have some sort of stake in that culture, and are treated moderately well by dominant culture now. For folks to European descent to put another culture and its myths in a blender, and make money off it, while at the same time have their dominant culture treat the other culture badly... that's a problem.

This to me sounds almost worse than a blanket rule against pastiche. All this does is put people in boxes based on their ethnic identity (which could have zero cultural relevance to them). I mean you don't carry culture in your blood. It doesn't matter if you are descended from people of a given region if you have no experience with that culture. And those of us living in the states, often have vague attachments to the cultures we came form, but that eventually goes away after several generations (I was raised in an Italian household, with a lot of the food and cultural elements, but was quite surprised when I went to Italy how little I knew about the culture). We shouldn't be trapping people in their ethnicity. Just because someone is of European ancestry, they shouldn't be limited to playing with Euoprean myths and legends, and just because someone is of East Asian ancestry, they shouldn't be limited to east Asian myths and legends. To me that is frighteningly similar to ethnic nationalism and blood and soil ideology.

Further all this kind of thinking does is make these cultures more exotic. One of the chief complaints about something like OA is that it exoticizes Asian cultures. Which is true to a degree, but OA is also one step towards making it less exotic because as each wave of designer comes in and explores this topic you have increased understanding of the source material (this is something you see often with translations over time; where the understanding of the language being translated because much more nuanced). If you make cultures outside ones own off limits, or attach a bunch of arbitrary taboos and rules around handling elements from that culture, it is basically saying this thing is so exotic you will never truly be able to understand it or appreciate it safely without some sort of intermediary. Again, I go back to my bridge analogy. People are taking something that should be a bridge (a person from within a culture helping those outside it understand it) and turning it into a wall. That isn't going to lead to more nuanced cultural understanding. It is just going to make people uncomfortable and awkward when dealing with people of different backgrounds in creative activities like gaming.

Edit: and if the rules around this are lopsided, that sounds like a recipe for resentment and serious misunderstanding. I can't imagine it is a good idea to say for example, group X can play with culture A and B, for historical reasons we've identified, but group Y can only play with culture A.
 
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Why? Where is the connection here? I mean, I just happen to recently read the 4e take on Baba Yaga (Dungeon 196 to be exact) for my campaign. Where is the appropriation? The legend seems to have been brought into D&D pretty much whole cloth, without any attempt to obfuscate or change where the idea came from.

See, that's where the "Cultural appropriation" arguments go off the tracks. It's perfectly fine to use some culture's trappings or whatnot, so long as it's done respectfully and without any attempt to hide where the ideas come from.
I think you literally just made my point! There isn't any material difference which you can name, no line, between writing about Baba Yaga, a legend of a particular culture, and writing about Samurai, a topic germane to a different culture. Nor is D&D's take on Baba Yaga any more authentic than its take on Samurai, believe me, you can go check out sources on Baba Yaga pretty easily. I think in both cases D&D created a recognizable interpretation which was adapted to the goals at hand (IE creating an RPG).

OA is problematic because it paints a picture of "Oriental" which is massively skewed towards Japan and then viewed through the lens of 1980's pop-culture understanding of the history and culture of an incredibly diverse range of peoples. I mean, seriously, WHY THE HECK is a yakuza considered a class? Oh, hey, let's really annoy people and whack a great big rising sun flag on the bottom of page 30. That's not offensive to people at all. ((Little hint, that would be the equivalent of putting a Confederate Flag in a D&D book)) Oh, and let's draw almost exclusively from Japan when talking about armor and weapons, right down to the names. Scanning the book, I can find exactly ONE art piece that isn't pulled straight from a Japanese art history book.

In other words, it's not really cultural appropriation so much as just wildly inaccurate.
I don't think either one of us has an issue with this. I agree, OA is not a very accurate book. It was hastily written, and it makes no real attempt to cover any non-Japanese material, but instead (lazily if one must cast aspersions on it) simply projects its already cartoonish Japan onto the mainland. OTOH, to give it a bit of defense, I've watched a LOT of these Chinese historical/fantasy dramas, its a whole genre (my wife happens to be Chinese, so its something we can watch together that she likes). A LOT of the sorts of heroic ideals and attitudes are very parallel, as is a lot of the mythology. I don't think OA got it 'right' exactly, but I do think that you can draw strong parallels and that if the OA material had been more diligent about providing both Chinese and Japanese names for things, and maybe a bit stronger Chinese 'spin' on some of the material, that the provided mechanics and subsystems and themes are useful in both 'Fantasy China' and 'Fantasy Japan'. I also think it is a bit harsh to pillory OA for being a game supplement, produced by a GAME COMPANY and not having the levels of historical and cultural fidelity of an encyclopedia or text book. If it promulgated some offensive tropes, which I am utterly convinced is true, that's less excusable, but I am pretty sure that was at least unintentional (and to be fair, I haven't heard anyone throwing dirt at the authors, beyond 'you guys were naive', which I can fully endorse).

And really, why wouldn't Yakuza be a class? In China they may go by names like 'Tongs' or whatnot, but the same idea exists. It exists in Europe too, and we have the Thief class, who band together into 'guilds', etc. (this could be interpreted to be something like 'The Black Hand' if you want, though the idea is more generalized than that). I think one of the big differences between D&D's treatment of East and West actually stems from the different sources. Most western material is drawn from actual fantasy. The Thief class is basically 'Grey Mouser' or something similar, the Ranger is Aragorn, the Barbarian is Conan, etc. The Eastern material is much more "we just read about this in some reference, or saw a TV show where someone said this." So, the western classes are more generalized and less specific. They are designed to represent ANY Wizard, Priest, Warrior, Thief, etc. from pretty much any myth, legend, or fantasy. You can trace them back into stories as archetypes, and etc. but in general they're not too specific. Now and then you get a class that is more so, like Barbarian, Assassin, Druid, or Monk, but that doesn't undermine the general concept. With OA you get these very specific classes which fill very specific niches in a pretty limited conceptual space. TBH, my main criticism of OA, as a game, is more that it would have been a lot more successful if they had simply described how a fighter, priest, rogue, or wizard would be flavored to work in either Japan or China. Then they could have added some sub classes to represent more specific tropes (the Eastern equivalent of Assassins and Druids essentially). The page savings could have been spent on exploring China and presenting a more inclusive and interesting milieu for it.

However, it is what it is, and we've long since moved on from 1e anyway. WotC put a disclaimer on it, which I think is awesome. If they choose to demonitize it, that is up to them, but it wouldn't be a bad gesture. My guess is that the revenue from this book is minuscule anyway, so it is more a cheap way to win a few hearts and minds than anything else, business-wise.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
The point where I don't agree is that it SHOULD be a problem.

I think you'll have to explain why before I will understand.

sounds too much "we are all equal but tome are more equal than others" for my tastes.

Well, maybe you missed how all this conversation started - in the US, we are all in theory equal, but in reality, some are more equal than others, to the point where the less-equal are abused by police. And the community started talking about how that status plays out within the hobby, and what should be done about that.

I'm noting that, in that context, those who are effectively more-equal making use of the cultural traditions of those who are less-equal is apt to be an abuse of their more-equal status. "Punching down" as it were.

The context between folks in the US and in Europe is different. I have not myself seen signs that Europeans here are by and large less-equal in anything like the way African-Americans and other groups are.
 


If this image really represent everything that's wrong in OA then we can pretty much remove the warning advice from the PDF and be done with it.

Because, frankly, I don't see ANYTHING wrong about it.

There are pandas. Dressed in Japanese attire. Seriously?

I guess we all know that pandas aren't autoctonous animals in japan, but, still, seriously?

It's a fantasy picture representing (I guess) a fantasy world with 2 antropomorphic and presumibily sentient characters? And we want to nitpick about the fact that pandas are animals that in the real world live in China?

That's exactly the kind of overreacting behaviour I'm frightened of.
I can see both sides. If the artist really wants to depict something Chinese, then the katana is inappropriate, certainly alien. I can see why Chinese people are touchy about Japanese culture too, they have NOT even started to forget WWII. So, if I'm Chinese and looking at the panda with a katana, it probably irritates me. It may also represent ignorance by the artist, which is irritating too. OTOH you are right, maybe this was exactly the image that the artist intended, a Samurai Panda. Of course we don't really know.

I think there's a lot of value in tolerance however. The change in the art direction that was noted, well, that's great! People voiced an opinion, suggested an improvement, everyone agreed, good! OTOH what was that process like? I can guarantee you, if I was putting out a game product and people started threatening me because they disagreed with some content, I would be FAR FAR LESS inclined to discuss it with them or give their opinion any credence than if it was simply presented as constructive ideas. I work in an industry where teamwork and constructive suggestion, even criticism, is held as a high virtue. Still curtesy and sensitivity applies in all directions, and you wouldn't get far in our business if you ran around calling people idiots and stupid fools, or worse, just because they didn't agree with you all the time. That being said, there ARE lines, of course! Nobody can exactly draw them or be sure if they stumbled across one, but the same principle should still hold, be nice. Ask people what they meant by something. My bet is that is what happened with the Samurai Panda, and the result is pretty cool! :)
 

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