WotC Dungeons & Dragons Fans Seek Removal of Oriental Adventures From Online Marketplace

[Danzauker]

The fact that you see nothing wrong with this is probably the source of the issue.

Hrm, the national animal of China, long the symbol of China and things Chinese, being paired with weapons and paraphernalia from a culture that, well, historically, has been someone at odds with China. Fifty years of forced labour, millions of deaths, a shopping list of crimes against humanity, tends to leave the population with something of a negative view of their oppressors. And, having some American come along and cluelessly glue the two together, well, it might be somewhat of an issue.

Kind of like dressing up bald eagles with swastikas and jackboots and then claiming that there's nothing to worry about here.

You're giving me ideas here.

 

[Mirtek]

I've found it interesting while promoting our latest book, Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters, I've seen a noticeable overlap in people who (a) complain about the concept of cultural appropriation and (b) were really concerned that we might try to stat Jesus in our book (we don't, BTW). It's almost like cultural appropriation is OK until it's one's own culture and then suddenly it's a problem. I'm sure if I "misused" an American flag, they'd be all up in arms.

The question would be with which people on the other side they overlap. E.g. the people who complain that South Park uses Jesus as a character overlap (in a general ideological sense) with the people who complain that South Park may use Mohammed as a character.

Yet South Park is happily ignoring the first group yet had to give in to the demand of the second.

PS: yes there is the one Episode that had Mohammed in it, but that was created years before """ hit the Fan in regards to thid

 

[Hussar]

Again, it's the question of punching down. Muslims in America and Canada have hardly had it all that easy for the past couple of decades. Kicking them while they're down is just lazy comedy and, well, not all that funny.

Look forward to the day when you can make Mohammed jokes and not be seen as a racist dick and then you'll know that we've achieved a level of equality in our society.

 

[Danzauker]

Again, it's the question of punching down. Muslims in America and Canada have hardly had it all that easy for the past couple of decades. Kicking them while they're down is just lazy comedy and, well, not all that funny.

Look forward to the day when you can make Mohammed jokes and not be seen as a racist dick and then you'll know that we've achieved a level of equality in our society.

Jokes on Mohammed are exactly the same as jokes on Jesus, Abraham or any other god/religious figure.

I'd personally reverse your last statement cause and effect.

 

[reelo]

Again, it's the question of punching down. Muslims in America and Canada have hardly had it all that easy for the past couple of decades. Kicking them while they're down is just lazy comedy and, well, not all that funny.

Look forward to the day when you can make Mohammed jokes and not be seen as a racist dick and then you'll know that we've achieved a level of equality in our society.

Without wanting to break forum rules, as a Humanist I'll just say this: confusing religious criticism and racism is a dangerous error that plays both into the hands of religious extremists AND right-wing supremacists.
And with that, I'll say no more.

 

[Mirtek]

Again, it's the question of punching down. Muslims in America and Canada have hardly had it all that easy for the past couple of decades. Kicking them while they're down is just lazy comedy and, well, not all that funny.

Look forward to the day when you can make Mohammed jokes and not be seen as a racist dick and then you'll know that we've achieved a level of equality in our society.

Unfortunately that is not why SP is not making these jokes

 

[Unwise]

I'm reading this and reminiscing about the two Asian brothers in our D&D group at school who were so excited when one of them got that book. Finally we might start playing games in settings that reflect mythology that meant more to them and peaked their nostalgia for childhood tales. It's funny how times change. At the time it was seen very differently. I remember their complaints being about the lack of Thai, Malay and Indonesian myths and monsters.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I've found it interesting while promoting our latest book, Mythological Figures & Maleficent Monsters, I've seen a noticeable overlap in people who (a) complain about the concept of cultural appropriation and (b) were really concerned that we might try to stat Jesus in our book (we don't, BTW). It's almost like cultural appropriation is OK until it's one's own culture and then suddenly it's a problem. I'm sure if I "misused" an American flag, they'd be all up in arms.

Yes, I am sure many Americans would wonder why you were selectively insulting their nation over others. Still others would not.

as to appropriation: we already are using the pseudo European myth to make games. Oriental adventures is no more disrespectful or inaccurate as the original game is.

the complaint I guess is that white people wrote it. I mean when it’s crouching tiger hidden dragon or Bruce f’ing Lee it’s all good. Or anime from Japan or whatever.

its interesting. When we see Japanese Anime or whatever depict Europeans, how many of us get bent out of shape? It’s always “off” and odd in some way but the heroes are as likely from one Culture as another.

sort of like oriental adventures. They’re heroic and characters we liked playing. It was not mockery.

is the issue then there are too few gaijin in Japan to be offended? Or they don’t care? Or most Europeans don’t?

 

[Danzauker]

Yes, I am sure many Americans would wonder why you were selectively insulting their nation over others. Still others would not.

as to appropriation: we already are using the pseudo European myth to make games. Oriental adventures is no more disrespectful or inaccurate as the original game is.

the complaint I guess is that white people wrote it. I mean when it’s crouching tiger hidden dragon or Bruce f’ing Lee it’s all good. Or anime from Japan or whatever.

its interesting. When we see Japanese Anime or whatever depict Europeans, how many of us get bent out of shape? It’s always “off” and odd in some way but the heroes are as likely from one Culture as another.

sort of like oriental adventures. They’re heroic and characters we liked playing. It was not mockery.

is the issue then there are too few gaijin in Japan to be offended? Or they don’t care? Or most Europeans don’t?

To be honest, I think the majority if not all of Bruce Lee movies count as American made and not Chinese, and in fact they had their share of criticism in the past and present.

Regarding anime, well I've been reading manga and anime for decades. I've seen all sorts of mispresentations of westerners in general, some due to ignorance, some due to the "exotic factor", some done intentionally. I can't speak for all of Europe of course, but from personal experience in regards of my country, we don't give it much of a thought. Maybe the casual laugh or smirk. Not much different from the depiction you can find in the average American movie, just to say.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But are forks and spoons on the weapon charts for Occidental Adventures? Or how about frying pans? Using frying pans as a weapon is a trope that we see in films like Indiana Jones (Marion), Tangled (Rapunzel), and Lord of the Rings (Samwise Gamgee). We can probably even find more uses in media of frying pan as a weapon than chopsticks as a weapon. So does "it's a common trope" argument really explain why an improvised weapon is included in one weapon list but the other isn't?

Because OA was bringing in lots of tropes from martial arts genres of film. And you expect to see more improvised weaponry in that style of movie. The movies and books that influenced D&D were things like Conan, Three Hearts and Three Lions, Leiber and Vance. OA is inspired more by Samurai movies, the ninja and kung fu craze, and western media that was trying to emulate the fight choreography and martial arts of those films (which was a lot more advanced, stylized and developed than our fight choreography at the time). Those were largely the genres that were being brought into OA. Kung Fu movies were a thing, they were a phenomenon and I think it is okay that that kind of genre was being emulated in this book. The problem would be people shouldn't come to a book like this and just assume it is meant as a realistic overview of the Asian cultures that it was taking inspiration from (which I think we all kind of understood at the time----and definitely understand now when you look back at the context). Just like I said with gangster movies. The movies are not the problem. The problem are the people who see a movie and think that reflects reality in some way.