D&D 5E What Makes an Orc an Orc?

[ccs]

Of course you should. This would be perfect. No more racism in your game. Only culture. This would not be the D&D that I want but from all the other threads and literally thousands of posts, it seems that this is what and where it will lead to. All races will just be fancy humans affected and raised according to their culture.

I have almost been accused of racism because I want my orcs to be evil (depending on the setting, that is). I sincerely do not see a relation between evil orcs and black people but this fact has been hammered down on me time and time again. So I gave in. All races in published product should only be fancy humans. Since they're only fancy humans, it is only a small step to only play humans. It will no longer be the D&D that I love but it will no longer be morally ambiguous.

All you need to do when the accusations start is calmly agree with them & point out that "You're right, not all Orcs in the world are evil. Just all of the Orcs I'm going to throw at you."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Does Dritzz rings a bell? We had something like him, a lawful good half ogre years before Dritzz and the player was facing racism on a daily basis. And yet, his team mates helped him endure and to stay on the path of goodness. Yet the rules were that half ogres were evil to the core.

Nothing about that is harder to do if the ogre comes from a culture that worships evil gods in exchange for power and eats the flesh of weaker peoples. Ogres from a good society will still look down on and distrust the ogre from the people-eaters, not to mention non-ogres from good societies.

Drizzt doesn't stop being a possible story if it's Menzoberanzan and most other underdark drow city-states are under the corrupt and evil sway of Llolth and her spider-priestesses. Hell, you could replace the Svart city he hangs out in for a while with a good Drow enclave and it still works fine, though you then miss out on the cool svart city.

All other races are on the decline, thre must be a reason.

I think most people don't use that as a trope anymore.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Neither do I.

What I and others identify is that the rhetoric of dnd books with regards to orcs and others is the exact same rhetoric used in the real world to describe real groups of people, and having to read that crap about a playable race in a game they're looking to play hurts people, and turns them off the game and oftentimes the hobby as a whole.

I'd hope that the difference is pretty plain.

I hope so, too, but I know some people have written on this forum about stories of people identifying with particular "races" in D&D for whatever reason--and those races were evil, stupid, or had some other negative feature.

For a simple example, suppose I have a "race" (or whatever you want to call it these days ) which is quick and dexterous, but generally curious to the point of foolhardiness and at a very dangerous level. Granting such people a DEX +2 and WIS -2 would be perfectly reasonable to me, even capping their WIS at 18 instead of 20 would be fine. Such mechanical representations help define this creature for me, and helps differentiate it from humans and other peoples.

I have no issue with imposing penalties, as long as the over all creature feels "balanced" compared to the rest.

As to the rhetoric used to describe creatures in a game, it is an unfortunate thing given the pain someone has already suffered IRL, but hopefully people will understand it is a game and any harm certainly isn't intended. Given that most of us agree even the "worst" of people that can be playable characters have exceptions that rise above the rest--and those exceptions can certainly be the characters themselves.

 

[Helldritch]

1) Nothing about that is harder to do if the ogre comes from a culture that worships evil gods in exchange for power and eats the flesh of weaker peoples. Ogres from a good society will still look down on and distrust the ogre from the people-eaters, not to mention non-ogres from good societies.

Drizzt doesn't stop being a possible story if it's Menzoberanzan and most other underdark drow city-states are under the corrupt and evil sway of Llolth and her spider-priestesses. Hell, you could replace the Svart city he hangs out in for a while with a good Drow enclave and it still works fine, though you then miss out on the cool svart city.


2) I think most people don't use that as a trope anymore.

1) Perfectly valid point. I fully agree with you.
2) You might be surprised. A lot of old grognards like me are still playing in Greyhawk and other old settings where this is the basic assumption. Do not restrict yourself to your circle or this forum or D&D settings for that matter.

 

[MGibster]

What makes an orc an orc is the quality of the orkiness in their souls. WAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

hopefully people will understand it is a game and any harm certainly isn't intended.

Intention only matters in the context of how harshly we judge those who have brought harm. It has little, if any, impact on whether there is harm done.

And continuing to do the same harm after learning that it's harmful is the same as doing it on purpose in the first place.

1) Perfectly valid point. I fully agree with you.
2) You might be surprised. A lot of old grognards like me are still playing in Greyhawk and other old settings where this is the basic assumption. Do not restrict yourself to your circle or this forum or D&D settings for that matter.

The majority of the dnd community now is younger than 40. Most folks barely know what Greyhawk is. There's a lot more people watching the new She-Ra and taking inspiration for dnd than using the assumptions of Greyhawk or Dragonlance.

 

[MGibster]

The majority of the dnd community now is younger than 40. Most folks barely know what Greyhawk is. There's a lot more people watching the new She-Ra and taking inspiration for dnd than using the assumptions of Greyhawk or Dragonlance.

Yep. And I think a lot of the older players would be happier if they just accepted the game is going to change. It's a sign of good health and D&D has consistently changed every few years anyway. D&D will either change or it will die, it's really as simple as that. It doesn't mean they need to like the changes, I don't like all the changes, but I'm perfectly fine with orcs not being evil all the time. (I'm also fine with them being evil all the time though.) The last campaign I designed I got rid of the orc in the monster manual and just used half-orc stats as the full orc.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Intention only matters in the context of how harshly we judge those who have brought harm. It has little, if any, impact on whether there is harm done.

And continuing to do the same harm after learning that it's harmful is the same as doing it on purpose in the first place.

Fine, but as I have pointed out before, whether people agree or not, I'm not going to walk on eggshells about things just because it might upset someone.

As I mentioned, I've had bad things happen in my life, but I am not going to hold total strangers accountable simply because they might say or do something that brings that pain back into my mind or makes me feel uncomfortable. There will always be such times in my life. How I handle them and react to them is something I can control and that is what gives me strength and power. People can only harm me if I let them.

That's how I feel about it anyway.

 

[Helldritch]

The majority of the dnd community now is younger than 40. Most folks barely know what Greyhawk is. There's a lot more people watching the new She-Ra and taking inspiration for dnd than using the assumptions of Greyhawk or Dragonlance.

And a lot of these were introduced into the hobby by the old grognards themselves. A good bunch of the newer players are, in fact, returning to the hobby after years of hiatus. They are using the newer setting because WotC does not wish to update Greyhawk and other old settings.

You might be surprised at how fast boxed sets of Greyhawk are selling on eBay. For some reasons, old grognards like me are allergic to PDF files. This bugs me to no end but yet, I do have a gaming computer that a lot of young gamers are jealous about. I have two tablets for PDF and a portable computer for faster references. And guess what? My group composed of old players like me do not use the tablets. I had to print out every documents I had to translate while my players that are in their mid thirties have their own tablets with the translated files.

PS: I am a French speaking person and so are my players. I had to translate a lot of the books for them so that we could use all classes and spells. I don't like to wait for translated books.

 

[Campbell]

This is something I feel Paizo has done a pretty good job of addressing in Pathfinder Second Edition.

The writing does not essentialize the ancestries. Instead everything is described from a cultural context with room for variation. The Lost Omens World Guide goes into significant depth on cultural variations within each core ancestry. Stereotypes are called out as stereotypes and not essential truths. Finally the more "monstrous" ancestries have contact with the more traditional races that is not violent in nature.

The vast majority of the associated mechanics are described as cultural in nature and may actually be taken by members of other ancestries who take a feat showing they have gained familiarity with their culture. So a human may gain Orc Ferocity if they spend time with their allies in Stone Breakers tribe. Ability scores are also more flexible, but very specific to the way scores are generated in Pathfinder 2.

I think it really helps that Paizo has been so upfront about showcasing "monstrous" races in player facing material even with the understanding they may not be appropriate for every game. When you have Goblins in Core Rulebook, Hobgoblins and Lizardfolk in the Lost Omens Character Guide, and several others (Orcs, Kobolds, Changelings, Rat Folk, Dhampyr, and Tieflings) in the Advanced Player's Guide it helps players to see characters of those ancestries as autonomous beings.