D&D 5E Elf-Orc Grugach

[Haldrik]

I do want more official rules for customizing character concepts.

Seriously, I am at the point I really don't get why you keep trying to justify this against my views?

Because you keep implying that anyone who disagrees with your own interpretation of the rules is "untraditional" (wrong)?

It seems to me, you yourself are interpolating your own interpretation into the rules (eisegesis), when actually your interpretation remains absent from the Rules As Written.

Regarding the Rules As Written, the design space for the Elf-Orc remains a desideratum.

Note, how your interpretation gets problematic with regard to Eladrin-Orc. Eladrin can be either fey or humanoid. Your interpretation would mean sometimes the Eladrin become Half-Orcs or Full-Orcs but fey Eladrin dont.

Even according to your own problematic interpretation, if the fey Eladrin Elf is the parentage for this Elf-Orc Grugach (actually a decent allusion to the Forgotten Realms lore for the Wild Elf!), then the design space for a distinctive Elf-Orc remains.

 

[Haldrik]

Hmmm.

The fey Elf parentage of the Elf-Orc Grugach would also explain how the Forgotten Realms Wild Elf might speak Sylvan, the language of the Feywild plane.




For the sake of completion of D&D concepts of Grugach, here is the writeup from the 5e UA playtest.

Grugach

The grugach of the world of Greyhawk shun contact with other folk, preferring the solace of the deepest forests and the companionship of wild animals. Even other elves draw their suspicion.The grugach tend toward chaos and neutrality. They feel no special duty to anyone beyond their own folk and the forest that is their home. Troubles beyond their borders are best kept there. At the same time, they harbor little ambition beyond a peaceful coexistence with nature.If anyone is fool enough to disturb a grugach realm, these elves take to arms and fight in earnest. Grugach master the basic weapons needed to hunt and forage in the wood. Every copse of trees becomes a sniper’s nest,and each forest meadow is an ambush point. The grugach set pits filled with stakes, snares that leave an intruder helpless to grugach arrows, and other snares designed to kill rather than capture. The grugach fight to the death to preserve their realms.

Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1.
Grugach Weapon Training. You have proficiency with the spear, shortbow, longbow, and net.
Cantrip. You know one cantrip of your choice from the druid spell list. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for it.
Languages. Unlike other elves, you don’t speak, read, or write Common. You instead speak, read, and write Sylvan.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Man, you will just not let this go, huh? Crazy that you feel you need to justify this to a total stranger who has nothing to do with your game...

Because you keep implying that anyone who disagrees with your own interpretation of the rules is "untraditional" (wrong)?

No, I said there is no basis for it and I would not do it. YOU chose orc, and you've explained why, and I've explained perfectly viable alternatives. The basis for NOT having an elf-orc crossbreed is there. If I designed a Grugach (as something other than just another elf subrace) I would chose something other than an orc because precedence supports a non-orc choice. So, it is actually quite the opposite from what you seem to believe.

From 1E MM, pg. 76:

From 2E (sorry, this is just text pdf, so I can't give you the page):

In 3E, half-orc seem to be entirely human-orc crossbreeds, but in all fairness I didn't play 3E for long so there could certainly be more.

I can't tell you about 4E, I never played it.

And finally in 5E, I told you the "human" and "dwarf"-orc crossbreeds are considered half-orcs are examples. I am sure you get that, so why you are trying to rally against it I just don't know.

The text explicitly mentions "Human-Orc" and "Dwarf-Orc". But the text itself implies the "Elf-Orc" is impossible, since the Orc faction believes Luthic is the wife of Gruumsh who kills such unions. Thus this text, on balance, cannot mean an Elf-Orc. The stats for the Elf-Orc remain a desideratum within official 5e rules.

Like I said, they are examples. The text doesn't mention dragonborn-orc crossbreeds or tielfing-orc crossbreeds, either, so it is not implying any non-human, non-dwarf and orc crossbreed is impossible. In 5E an elf-orc crossbreed would certainly be possible, and it would be considered either an orc or half-orc as the text in the MM states. THAT is the RAW.

Moreover, the same Gruumsh-faction text explicitly says, that the Orc-Ogre isnt a Half-Orc. So there are different kinds of Orc hybrids with different kinds of statblocks depending on different kinds of parentage.

That is because an Ogre does not fit in with the previous sentence because it is not of similar size. Ogres are Large, not medium, and so it stipulates that an Ogre-Orc crossbreed is something different, the Ogrillon.

The Elf-Orc remains unlike the Human-Orc and the Dwarf-Orc.

Nope. If it survived it would be either an orc or half-orc because an elf is "a non-orc humanoid of similar size and stature." They are both medium-size humanoids. Just as a human, dwarf, tielfling, half-elf, etc. are all also medium-size humanoids.

design space for the Elf-Orc remains a desideratum

For you it obviously is. @doctorbadwolf seems to be right there with you, which is cool. Others, including myself, aren't.

And the point of the Elf-Orc Grugach is to return the 1e Grugach plausibly.

I pointed out there is precedence to make such a crossbreed race using something other than orc. Myself and others have said just make it an elf subrace like it was originally. It had nothing to do with orcs then, and it certainly doesn't need to now. If you want it to (which you do), then just do it and keep working on it until you get something you're happy with for your game.

But, to reiterate: I never said, "don't do this" or anything like that. I've said repeatedly "have at it and enjoy" and such. So, please do and good luck!

 

[Haldrik]

Man, you will just not let this go, huh? Crazy that you feel you need to justify this to a total stranger who has nothing to do with your game...

Heh, right back at cha!

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 1.

Using all of this why not just make it: "Your Strength score increases by 2. Unlike other elves, your Dexterity increases by +1, not +2."

 

[DND_Reborn]

Heh, right back at cha!

FINALLY, YOU GET IT!!! LOL. THANK GRUUMSH!

Nope, I was wrong. You didn't get it yet.

 

[Haldrik]

In 5E an elf-orc crossbreed would certainly be possible, and it would be considered either an orc or half-orc as the text in the MM states. THAT is the RAW.

The context of the rules that you cite, exclude Elf-Orc as a possible example.

The Rules As Written say "humanoid". However the FEY elf isnt a "humanoid", according to the Rules As Written.

Thus the Rules As Written disagree with your interpretation.

In fact, a FEY-elf/humanoid-orc doesnt produce a Half-Orc or Full-Orc. According to RAW.

 

[Haldrik]

Using all of this why not just make it: "Your Strength score increases by 2. Unlike other elves, your Dexterity increases by +1, not +2."

I like the idea of officially making the Elf format less straight-jackety.

Relately, I prefer more freedom for players to customize for their own personal character concept, thus formally suggest a choice between Strength, Dexterity, and Wisdom. The player could still do something idiosyncratic, individuating from the community.

Strength is essential for the flavor of the Grugach community. Dexterity remains relevant for gymastics and arrowheads. Wisdom actualizes the surprising access to the Druid class (even without level limit according to the old-school Grugach), and coheres well enough with the Perception bonus, and relating to Nature and animals.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The Rules As Written say "humanoid". However the FEY elf isnt a "humanoid", according to the Rules As Written.

What "FEY" elf? Oh, I get it... you went back and edited your posts to Eladrin-Orc... nice. That's convenient for you since they are only related to the elves of the Prime Material plane.

Here is an example of what you've added. Cute.

Note, how your interpretation gets problematic with regard to Eladrin-Orc. Eladrin can be either fey or humanoid. Your interpretation would mean sometimes the Eladrin become Half-Orcs or Full-Orcs but fey Eladrin dont.

Even according to your own problematic interpretation, if the fey Eladrin Elf is the parentage for this Elf-Orc Grugach (actually a decent allusion to the Forgotten Realms lore for the Wild Elf!), then the design space for a distinctive Elf-Orc remains.

Can orcs procreate with non-humanoids, such as fey? Who knows? Who cares? Such crosses between humanoid and non-humanoid (dragon, fiend, etc.) all have precedent in 5E, so if you want to go that route, knock yourself out.

But, I really thought you'd finally understood you don't need to justify it to me. I guess you haven't. Now, I have to go back and edit my post...

 

[Haldrik]

Regarding "just a branch of elf".

D&D 1e mentions "half-elf" as also just an other branch of elf, despite this branch being explicitly an Elf-Human.

Certainly, the other branches are different from each other. The Drow can have very different stats from the faerie "Grey Elf".

It is coherent for the Elf-Orc to likewise be a "branch of elf".



1e mentions Elf-Orc "cannot" "crossbreed". But why? One explanation is the Orc Gruumsh faction and the Elf Corellon faction hate each other. Perhaps they even cursed each other magically to prevent such unions.

According to this explanation, other factions of Orc and Elf who have nothing to do with the Corellon-Gruumsh polemic, "can" crossbreed. Even if they were magically cursed, they can likewise magically cure this curse, to make shared descendants possible.

Even according to 1e assumptions, it seems that a Human-Orc and a Human-Elf can crossbreed. Thus Orc and Elf can mix after all.

One can assume such Elf-Orc offspring are normally possible, even without the Human. And in any case, is magically possibly.



Elf-Orc children are coherent even within the old-school 1e Greyhawk setting lore.

In 5e Forgotten Realms lore, an Elf-Orc is possible per RAW.