D&D General What if the Blood War ended? (Possible Outcomes Discussion)

[Kobold Avenger]

I think a lot of neutral forces would side with the celestials in order to maintain the balance, leading to a new blood war between the upper/neutral planes and the lower planes

The Neutral forces are the Modrons, Slaadi and Rilmani. Modrons and Slaadi (and the pre-Slaadi precursors) don't get along with each other. The Rilmani do have an army but have to rely on covert actions to keep the balance.

The idea of there being an Armageddon that the Celestials can't win is also something that many Celestials believe in. It's why a bunch of them covertly do what they can to keep the Blood War going for all eternity.

 

[cbwjm]

The Neutral forces are the Modrons, Slaadi and Rilmani. Modrons and Slaadi (and the pre-Slaadi precursors) don't get along with each other. The Rilmani do have an army but have to rely on covert actions to keep the balance.

The idea of there being an Armageddon that the Celestials can't win is also something that many Celestials believe in. It's why a bunch of them covertly do what they can to keep the Blood War going for all eternity.

That's the same problem with the fiends though, demons and devils can't work together but if we do allow that scenario then I think allowing a scenario where the neutral forces join together is reasonable.

I also don't think it would just be the higher echelons of good/neutral beings. You'd also have bauriar and formians (whoever those insect people are on the outer planes), the gith races might also join in, not sure if githyanki would side with or against the fiends, depends on whether they feel their independence would be assured. The war would be a massive planar scouring event, ostensible upper vs lower planes but others would be dragged in to it, and i think most would side with the upper planes out of fear of what would become of them if this combined fiendish army won the war. As is, I think it is likely that any lower planar coalition would collapse before they won.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Well, first, I'd say that far more worlds in the material plane would be effected than just Toril, but I'm used to being forced to care about Faerun at this point and to focus on just that point would be kind of petty.

Yeah, I know it would effect more than just Toril, but that's the main setting of 5e, and this thread needs to be specific to one setting, or it'd fairly quickly become impossible to discuss. Thanks for participating, and great post!

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

This isn't really an answer to the question you're asking, but I got a pretty strong impression from the fluff in MToF that the devils are losing--almost to a point that the Blood War is a story of desperation for them:

(from MToF)
Avernus—"Zariel rules over the ruin that Avernus has become. Once it was a bustling realm filled with cities, trade outposts, and other features, but recent activity in the Blood War has reduced it to a blasted wasteland."

Minauros—"The layer of Minauros teeters on the edge of ruin. The realm is a great swamp, interspersed with cities and fortresses that are in constant need of repair, upkeep, and replacement. Time and again, structures built on this layer are left untended and are eventually drawn into the bottomless muck of the swamp. Mammon refuses to spend any more coin than necessary to keep the soul marketplace in the Sinking City functioning."

Maladomini—"Maladomini was wracked with fighting as the other Lords of the Nine took to the field against the conspirator. The resulting devastation left much of the layer in ruins"

Stygia—"Stygia has become a war-wracked realm. Any devils bound to either of the archdevils that aren't needed for service in the Blood War engage in constant skirmishes across the ice, Every other layer of the Nine Hells has a function related to warfare, industry, administration, or commerce, but Stygia is an expanse of untamed, unimproved territory."

Cania—"Mephistopheles and his devotees prefer to conduct their studies in a wasteland where they can unleash gouts of arcane energy without destroying anything important. Experiments involving new spells, new magic items, and other innovations for the infernal arsenal regularly cause localized cataclysms in this place."

Nessus—"By design, the place is devoid of activity"

That's six out of nine layers which have been destroyed by armed conflict or neglect, or are basically empty of productive enterprise, with a clear implication that things in Baator used to be better but that the plane's hopeless leadership shows no sign of turning things around.

I don't see them winning.

It would definitely take some crazy circumstances for it to happen, but this thread is to discuss the outcomes of those crazy things. How it happens isn't really important, as long as it does happen. What follows a side winning or losing is more important.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Defeating demons and devils is not the same things as defeating all evil.

In the eyes of the Celestials, it would be (if you throw in Ultroloths). Fiends are the representation of evil in the Outer Planes; if you destroy the very thing that represents evil, you have in effect triumphed over evil itself.

Of course, I think most Celestials know that this is not actually possible, because fiends are a reflection of mortals; so if you destroy all fiends, something new, and potentially worse, could take their place.

So Celestials do their best to simply maintain the Blood War instead of having delusions of triumphing over them, something they admit cannot succeed in the long run. They are well aware that of the balance of the multiverse and know they're apart of it.

Celestials seem to understand that they must fight as hard as they can to redeem souls and maintain good ones, and that any lapse in their vigilance will be exploited by the fiends, and tilt the balance in evil's favor. Final victory is not possible, but the struggle itself for every worthy soul is a righteous one that must be done.

Fiends on the other hand do dream of overthrowing the multiversal order. It is only due to their inability to work with each other, and the strength/cunning of the Celestials, that they do not succeed.

 

[Coroc]

If the Blood War to conceivably end, I don't think it actually would in any of the ways you're describing; the Blood War is explicitly designed so no force can win outright in conflict. The Devils are too organized to win; the Demons too numerous, and if any side gets an advantage, the Ultroloths or Celestials tip the scales to maintain balance.
...

This.

The whole discussion is pretty hypothetical from an "official lore" POV.

I would go even further: If you take out the essence of one of the corner alignments,

e.g.: devils loses = no strong aspect of LE anymore in the planes, then this would afflict the whole multiverse. In the primes LE Humanoids would turn LN or NE making them stronger or destroying themselves. The whole alignment system would take a big shift to chaotic good.

Neutrality would not work anymore like it did before, and give creatures which by nature have N alignment a chaotic good alignment suddenly. So nature / animals, plants and druids e.g would get strong CG aspects. No balance anymore.
For me this seems a highly undesirable situation. Eventually good and neutral aligned deities would even be forced to intervene if one side ever is short before winning the blood war.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Okay but what if a band of heroes murder Asmodeus and cleanse Hell, while another shunts the Abyss deep into the Far Realm, all after giving a the Good gods the key to sealing the Far Realm more tightly from our reality?

The “neutral” fiends aren’t powerful enough to stand against the celestials, and they wouldn’t stand united, regardless.

I figure demons and devils are simply replaced by evil gods and their servants, but for a couple hundred years the multiverse is simply a safer place.

If only half of that task can be completed, and one side or the other remains, I think the forces of good would just come up with a way to quickly turn willing mortal souls into new celestials, and give mass blessings to heroes of the mortal races making armies of PC class leveled heroes, and the New Blood War would be an epic 1-20 campaign AP just to get to a place where the Multiverse isn’t in immediate existential danger.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

As is, I think it is likely that any lower planar coalition would collapse before they won.

The only outcome where the Upper Planes still survives is the the Lower Planes turns on each other and starts the Blood War again. It has been suggested that Armageddon happened before, and the only thing that saved the Upper Planes were the Fiends turning on each other and starting the Blood War the first time.

If Armageddon was in the distant past, and would happen again in the future, then it's the Unity of Rings which is one of the central themes of Planescape.

 

[dave2008]

In the eyes of the Celestials, it would be (if you throw in Ultroloths). Fiends are the representation of evil in the Outer Planes; if you destroy the very thing that represents evil, you have in effect triumphed over evil itself.

I don't think of Celestials as being so foolish.

Regardless there a plenty of evil things that are not devils and demons. Including many evil gods that are more powerful than demons and devils. IMO, demons and devils are not the source of evil, but merely its most obvious manifestation or as you said its representation.

 

[dave2008]

The only outcome where the Upper Planes still survives is the the Lower Planes turns on each other and starts the Blood War again. It has been suggested that Armageddon happened before, and the only thing that saved the Upper Planes were the Fiends turning on each other and starting the Blood War the first time.

If Armageddon was in the distant past, and would happen again in the future, then it's the Unity of Rings which is one of the central themes of Planescape.

Or the stories and beliefs could just be wrong. I find the idea that the lower planes are so vastly more powerful than the upper planes just insulting. Definitely not my vision of the multiverse.