D&D General What if the Blood War ended? (Possible Outcomes Discussion)

dave2008

Legend
Aren't the Primordials imprisoned on Abeir by Ao? I'm just curious as to how they manage to do this. I like the idea of the evil gods freaking out, I might steal that, but their response in my version would probably be different.
Here is what I found in the 4e FR Campaign Guide:
"✦ The Elemental Chaos: The primordials dwell in this roiling storm of raw creation. This section offers a brief tour of major primordial realms."

and

"THE PRIMORDIALS
The Elemental Chaos provides essential building blocks for all matter in the cosmos, the primordial seed of all that is. The gods fear this wild plane of unimaginable extremes, and they respect the primordials that call it home. The few primordials that remained in Toril when Abeir split away never fought the gods as their fellows did. These primordials are sometimes worshiped as deities despite their elemental origin

The Elemental Lords
Five primordials rule realms within the Elemental Chaos. All but the chaotic evil Bazim-Gorag are unaligned.

Akadi: The Queen of the Air is the mistress of flying creatures and all that takes to the thin air. Her airwalkers teach that wisdom can be found only in trial and error, a foundation for faith as thin as the air that their mistress embodies.

Bazim-Gorag: The Lord of the Pandemonium Stone (see the sidebar) is an ascended batrachi dedicated to pure chaos. He is chance incarnate, invoked by the powerless, the gamblers, and anyone who has lost hope in anything but an impossible twist of fate.

Grumbar: The Lord of the Earth is a being of stone and dirt, the foundation upon which all else is built. The earth makes no choices—it simply is. His earthwalkers resist change in any form.

Istishia: The Lord of Water is the embodiment of the constantly mutable nature of water. Not interested in Umberlee’s storms or Valkur’s sailors, he is an aloof and uncaring being.

Kossuth: The firewalkers who revere the Lord of Fire espouse the cleansing properties of flame and its role in the renewal of life. Kossuth is most often appealed to by lay folk as they watch their homes burn to the ground. They find him entirely uninterested.

Seven Lost Gods: This term has been used to describe different groups of powerful entities at different times, sowing confusion even among learned sages. Some of these so-called “lost gods” might have been primordials. One group of beings that could fit this designation includes Dendar the Night Serpent, Kezef the Chaos Hound, and Borem of the Boiling Mud. "
 

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I think that the end of the Blood War bodes ill for the planes no matter how it gets ended. The victory of demons or devils frees them up to attend to schemes and destruction elsewhere. Even if the victor is left sorely weakened, on the scale of time that extraplanar creatures can operate on, it's only a temporary reprieve. If an outside force such the celestials, yugoloths, or what have you is victorious, it's only a matter of time before the Nine Hells or the Abyss corrupts them and we're back to having demons and devils.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Yeah, but this more comes down to ignoring that, and saying what you think would happen for each scenario.

I'm sure there are hundreds of variants of each, and that's kind of the point of this thread. It'd be great if people could post their versions of each scenario.

It's more about choosing which Asmodeus. The demons will act the same way regardless of origin.

The devils change a lot depending on what you pick.

Ahriman-Asmodeus wants to blow up the world and restart. He won't let the Blood War stop until he can. If the Devils win, it's GAME OVER.

The NV-Asmodeus is not completely enemies of the Celestials there. He's a god. The Blood War is more of an annoyance. Who wins means a lot less. If the Devils start to lose,the celestial and gods will come to their aid. The gods have bigger fish to fry.

And no one knows what the 3e Asmodeus and the 4e-FR Asmodeus wants not what their goals are.
 

Graz'zt is another factor in the Blood War, while clearly not the most powerful Demon Lord, he is the son of the Pale Night the Mother of Demons, and possibly Nyarlathotep. He seeks a peaceful end to the Blood War, and would work with third parties such as the Yugoloths.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
I think that the end of the Blood War bodes ill for the planes no matter how it gets ended. The victory of demons or devils frees them up to attend to schemes and destruction elsewhere. Even if the victor is left sorely weakened, on the scale of time that extraplanar creatures can operate on, it's only a temporary reprieve. If an outside force such the celestials, yugoloths, or what have you is victorious, it's only a matter of time before the Nine Hells or the Abyss corrupts them and we're back to having demons and devils.
Oh, it's obviously going to be catastrophic, and in the worlds I'm creating for each scenario, the end of it is named "The Catastrophe"
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
It's more about choosing which Asmodeus. The demons will act the same way regardless of origin.

The devils change a lot depending on what you pick.

Ahriman-Asmodeus wants to blow up the world and restart. He won't let the Blood War stop until he can. If the Devils win, it's GAME OVER.

The NV-Asmodeus is not completely enemies of the Celestials there. He's a god. The Blood War is more of an annoyance. Who wins means a lot less. If the Devils start to lose,the celestial and gods will come to their aid. The gods have bigger fish to fry.

And no one knows what the 3e Asmodeus and the 4e-FR Asmodeus wants not what their goals are.
Yeah, Asmodeus is probably the largest factor for variants to the events, but only if the Devils are on the loosing side.
 

dave2008

Legend
Yeah, Asmodeus is probably the largest factor for variants to the events, but only if the Devils are on the loosing side.
No, I think the point is different versions of big A have different goals (in the lore). So it definitely matters if it is on the wining side.

Also, it is relevant that the Archfiends and Demon Lords, in "5e canon," are only about as strong as lesser gods (MM pg 67). The greater gods appear to be much stronger (their avatars would be similar to lesser gods, pg 11 of the DMG). So perhaps on that note, what happens in the blood war doesn't alter much if the gods want to get directly involved.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I don't think of Celestials as being so foolish.

Regardless there a plenty of evil things that are not devils and demons. Including many evil gods that are more powerful than demons and devils. IMO, demons and devils are not the source of evil, but merely its most obvious manifestation or as you said its representation.

If you read my whole post, I pretty much say that Celestials are well aware that defeating all fiends would not truly end all evil, as something else would rise (or fall) to take their place.

Which is kind of the whole reason why Celestials wouldn't even try to win the Blood War; the perpetual stalemate is the most optimal outcome Celestials can hope for, as victory over the forces of evil is not possible.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Oh, it's obviously going to be catastrophic, and in the worlds I'm creating for each scenario, the end of it is named "The Catastrophe"

I'll add, there is little information on the end of the Blood War, but that it is prophesied that whenever the Crawling City (ruled by the General of Gehenna) enters the Blood War, it is said to be the decisive battle that ends it.

1595286933369.png


In truth, I think we perhaps should put more focus on the Yugoloths... their motives are in far more secrecy than the devils/demons. It's not even clear who, or what, the General of Gehenna is.

1595287107344.png
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No, I think the point is different versions of big A have different goals (in the lore). So it definitely matters if it is on the wining side.

Also, it is relevant that the Archfiends and Demon Lords, in "5e canon," are only about as strong as lesser gods (MM pg 67). The greater gods appear to be much stronger (their avatars would be similar to lesser gods, pg 11 of the DMG). So perhaps on that note, what happens in the blood war doesn't alter much if the gods want to get directly involved.
As it should be.

But the gods can only do so much, because even if they are 10x as powerful as the most powerful demon, there are 12 demons working together to kill the god, and a horde of lesser demons to fight the god's angels.


But hell, in my worlds, the Blood War isn't a thing, and the fiends/demons (all fiends are just called demons or fiends, when referring to the creature type, there is no "a fiend for every alignment of evil" diagram) are either instead at war with the beings of the Far Realm, or are simply a simmering pot of danger that could end the world if things go really bad and the wrong seals get broken. (Sometimes its the Unseelie Fey who are holding back the tides of cosmic horror, but it's always a group that is either evil or is seen as a threat to Free Folk)
 

dave2008

Legend
But the gods can only do so much, because even if they are 10x as powerful as the most powerful demon, there are 12 demons working together to kill the god, and a horde of lesser demons to fight the god's angels.
Of course we don't know that in 5e. Greater gods could be so powerful that powerful demons and devils are nothing to them. We just don't know. However,...
But hell, in my worlds, the Blood War isn't a thing, and the fiends/demons (all fiends are just called demons or fiends, when referring to the creature type, there is no "a fiend for every alignment of evil" diagram) are either instead at war with the beings of the Far Realm, or are simply a simmering pot of danger that could end the world if things go really bad and the wrong seals get broken. (Sometimes its the Unseelie Fey who are holding back the tides of cosmic horror, but it's always a group that is either evil or is seen as a threat to Free Folk)
...much like you I don't even use the blood war in my worlds. There are many flavors or evil, but its the entities of good and their faithful that keep them at bay, not a war among fiends.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Of course we don't know that in 5e. Greater gods could be so powerful that powerful demons and devils are nothing to them. We just don't know. However,...

...much like you I don't even use the blood war in my worlds. There are many flavors or evil, but its the entities of good and their faithful that keep them at bay, not a war among fiends.
Exactly. I never liked the whole idea of a making demons into part of a wagon wheel of "outsiders" with a "creature per alignment", or the idea of good requiring evil to be disorganized and self-defeating in order to survive.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
No, I think the point is different versions of big A have different goals (in the lore). So it definitely matters if it is on the wining side.

Also, it is relevant that the Archfiends and Demon Lords, in "5e canon," are only about as strong as lesser gods (MM pg 67). The greater gods appear to be much stronger (their avatars would be similar to lesser gods, pg 11 of the DMG). So perhaps on that note, what happens in the blood war doesn't alter much if the gods want to get directly involved.

Exactly.
The nature of Big Asmodeus displays the temperature of the Blood War itself.

In 2e and earlier, the Blood War is a full on major conflict that could shape the whole universe. If either side wins or their join forces, the world is over. It unleashes worldbusting forces out the lower planes and initiates the end game. The demons are too numerues and Asmodeus is a secret reboot button.

In 3e and 4e Forgotten Realms, the Blood War is a minorish conflict that matters but not so much. The gods could handle a demon or devil victory. FR is a Deity vs Deity setting. Fiends are background characters.

In 4e Nethir Vale, the Blood War is a minor cold war. It's a personal gripe. Thedemon want their shard back. The devils want more shards. Either side wins and noonereally cares. As long as the Primordials stay chained up and the Stars in the Far Realm stay distant. It's Hadar and Caiphon who scares Moradin not Demogorgon or Asmodeus. Elder evils >>>>>>>>>>> Fiends

And 5e says hold my beer and makes the Blood War more of a clown shown distraction that greater gods only bother looking at because one of their temples my get knocked down. Fiends are so weak.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Okay, I've been working a ton on what the world, in my version of the events, would look like 1,000 years into the future. The world's name has been changed a bit, no longer Toril, but now Tor-eal (Tohr-ee-ahl).
It's definitely not done, and very specific to my version of events as they happen, but it's what I've got so far, and I'd just like to see what people think.
 

Thirteenspades

Great Wyrm
Yeah, Asmodeus is probably the largest factor for variants to the events, but only if the Devils are on the loosing side.
Coincidentally I was reading this thread and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.
 

Thirteenspades

Great Wyrm
Coincidentally I was reading this thread and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.
Honestly, this theory about Ahriman- that he created ten avatars known as Asmodeus- ties up a lot of the loose ends that come up with the Blood War.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Coincidentally I was reading this thread and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.

An interesting post, but completely misses the strength of the Devils and the weakness of the Demons; it isn't that one is organized and the other is disorganized. It is that one is united and the other is in constant conflict with itself.

The devils may plot and even fight battles together, but they are still bound by an extremely rigid hierarchical structure that keeps them focused on waging the Blood War. The demons have no such structure, and are actually in constant war with each other. The Demon Lords are trying to destroy each other just as much as invade hell, and the smarter ones are actually more focused on fighting in the Abyss as it's more likely to be successful.

It is completely true that if the Demon Lords all made an alliance with each other, they would absolutely sweep through Avernus, conquer the Nine Hells, and then likely the entire Multiverse with ease. But they can't do it; it's against their nature to hold any alliance for long, and an alliance between all the Demons is completely unheard of.

So the Devils are only ever fighting a fraction of Demons at a time, as the bulk remain in the Abyss warring against each other.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
An interesting post, but completely misses the strength of the Devils and the weakness of the Demons; it isn't that one is organized and the other is disorganized. It is that one is united and the other is in constant conflict with itself.

The devils may plot and even fight battles together, but they are still bound by an extremely rigid hierarchical structure that keeps them focused on waging the Blood War. The demons have no such structure, and are actually in constant war with each other. The Demon Lords are trying to destroy each other just as much as invade hell, and the smarter ones are actually more focused on fighting in the Abyss as it's more likely to be successful.

It is completely true that if the Demon Lords all made an alliance with each other, they would absolutely sweep through Avernus, conquer the Nine Hells, and then likely the entire Multiverse with ease. But they can't do it; it's against their nature to hold any alliance for long, and an alliance between all the Demons is completely unheard of.

So the Devils are only ever fighting a fraction of Demons at a time, as the bulk remain in the Abyss warring against each other.
Yes, that definitely is a huge flaw in the Demons, but the Devils are not completely without that factor. They're always plotting, scheming, and backstabbing each other.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.

Yup. In settings with Ahriman-Asmodeus,theBlood War is a stalling tactic to keep the Celestials from invading the Nine Hell and kill him before he finishes healing.

In Nethir Vale, the Blood War barely happens as it isn't easy to get from the Abyss to the Nine Hells in the World Axis. It's too far away and demons can't trust each other enough to bring a large force that could be backstabed.
 

Thirteenspades

Great Wyrm
An interesting post, but completely misses the strength of the Devils and the weakness of the Demons; it isn't that one is organized and the other is disorganized. It is that one is united and the other is in constant conflict with itself.

The devils may plot and even fight battles together, but they are still bound by an extremely rigid hierarchical structure that keeps them focused on waging the Blood War. The demons have no such structure, and are actually in constant war with each other. The Demon Lords are trying to destroy each other just as much as invade hell, and the smarter ones are actually more focused on fighting in the Abyss as it's more likely to be successful.

It is completely true that if the Demon Lords all made an alliance with each other, they would absolutely sweep through Avernus, conquer the Nine Hells, and then likely the entire Multiverse with ease. But they can't do it; it's against their nature to hold any alliance for long, and an alliance between all the Demons is completely unheard of.

So the Devils are only ever fighting a fraction of Demons at a time, as the bulk remain in the Abyss warring against each other.
But the Abyss is likely way, way bigger than Hell. Since each layer is the size of a planet on both planes, you could fit hundreds of millions of demons on each of the 700+ layers, so united or divided, they would still overpower the devils if it were not for some outside force.
 

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