D&D 5E Defensive Duelist fix?

[FrogReaver]

We call it the Voltron Sword, since the power combos only get pulled out after getting beat up or when things look dire.
That's definitely true, but it's often a self fulfilling prophecy. You die in a fight because you failed the social challenge with the thieves guild, or failed to avoid the orc army patrol, or pissed off the guards with general murderhobo'ing and couldn't talk your way out of it.

Of course, people like fighting and it's important to have fun when you do. D&D is half wargame. But +2 DPR is rarely as impactful as a good exploration / social roll.

Yea. It can be. Outside of multiclassing there’s really not much of a way to meaningfully boost non-combat skills though.

Say I’m a fighter. What options do I really have?

 

[Stoutstien]

Yea. It can be. Outside of multiclassing there’s really not much of a way to meaningfully boost non-combat skills though.

Say I’m a fighter. What options do I really have?

You get 2 extra feats. Take ritual caster instead of PaM or MI instead of GWM.

 

[Iry]

Say I’m a fighter. What options do I really have?

For example? Take a decent Cha score and talk to your DM about allowing UA. A Battlemaster with Prodigy(Deception) and the Silver Tongue maneuver can switch hit as a double threat.

Without feats things get tough, of course.

 

[Iry]

Say I’m a fighter. What options do I really have?

For example? Take a decent Cha score and talk to your DM about allowing UA. A Battlemaster with Prodigy(Deception) and the Silver Tongue maneuver can switch hit as a double threat.

Or imagine an Eldritch Knight with max intelligence rocking the new Artificer Initiate and Practiced Expert feats to get magic stone(Int) + archery style + arcana expertise.

Without feats things get tough, of course.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Yea. It can be. Outside of multiclassing there’s really not much of a way to meaningfully boost non-combat skills though.

Say I’m a fighter. What options do I really have?

Excellent discussion!

I agree, but I find also this is where other build-types shine. For instance, in a recent battle, we had a PC convince a dragon to stay out of the fight since we meant it no harm but were only there to stop the drow and their plans. The PC was actually a diviner wizard. He had an 18 left over from portent, and with proficiency in persuasion, but only a CHA mod +1. All told, his "roll" became a 23, which even with the -10 penalty was good enough the DM ruled that the dragon would wait on the sidelines and basically feed on the losers--in exchange for half of any spoils.

We won the battle, but let me tell you if that player didn't act that way, it would have been a much harder fight. Probably not a TPK, but as it was we had one NPC retainer die and might have lost a PC or two as well.

So, to address your point, this is what I mean by build types. If you make a fighter with say +2 mod in STR and/or DEX, but also +2 in CHA and give him a background with skills such as Persuasion or just use Intimidate, battles could be "won" without ever being fought. Will it happen often? Depends on the DM and such, but at least you'd have options.

I like to give even my "combat-oriented" PCs at least one skill for exploration and one for social, just in case I need to act outside of combat.

 

[FrogReaver]

Excellent discussion!

I agree, but I find also this is where other build-types shine. For instance, in a recent battle, we had a PC convince a dragon to stay out of the fight since we meant it no harm but were only there to stop the drow and their plans. The PC was actually a diviner wizard. He had an 18 left over from portent, and with proficiency in persuasion, but only a CHA mod +1. All told, his "roll" became a 23, which even with the -10 penalty was good enough the DM ruled that the dragon would wait on the sidelines and basically feed on the losers--in exchange for half of any spoils.

We won the battle, but let me tell you if that player didn't act that way, it would have been a much harder fight. Probably not a TPK, but as it was we had one NPC retainer die and might have lost a PC or two as well.

So, to address your point, this is what I mean by build types. If you make a fighter with say +2 mod in STR and/or DEX, but also +2 in CHA and give him a background with skills such as Persuasion or just use Intimidate, battles could be "won" without ever being fought. Will it happen often? Depends on the DM and such, but at least you'd have options.

I like to give even my "combat-oriented" PCs at least one skill for exploration and one for social, just in case I need to act outside of combat.

Diviner wizard gets an ability that helps any skill roll. Most classes don’t.

I’m all for giving a character skills useful in out of combat - but they mean so little without a way to boost them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Diviner wizard gets an ability that helps any skill roll. Most classes don’t.

I’m all for giving a character skills useful in out of combat - but they mean so little without a way to boost them.

Oh, I know, that was just a particularly useful time to have it. The player (if he had a lower portent roll) could have rolled and maybe gotten lucky enough?

My point was simply that DCs generally are low enough at low levels (and proficiency makes up the deficit at higher levels to a point) that proficiency in some skills that aren't combat-related can go a long way in avoiding combat. Granted, a lot just depends on the table's style as well.

Another option is the "Working Together" rule (combined with the variant "Skills with Different Abilities" is even better). If your fighter (as an example) has Intimidate and another PC has Persuasion, but your modifier is +6 and his is +4, he can help you gain advantage on your Intimidate check. The scenario might play out something like:

You are confronted by a bunch of bandits. The fighter draws his weapon, posturing and threatening the bandits (STR Intimidate maybe?) and the cleric says "Hey, guys, trust me you really don't want to make him angry" (CHA Persuasion). Since the fighter's +6 mod is higher, that player rolls, but gains advantage from the cleric's aid.

I've just seen a lot of times when such things can (and do) help to avoid combat, even turning it into a social encounter where the PCs gain more than they would have by fighting. I'm not saying it doesn't take some thought and creativity at times, but it can work well enough IMO.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think including an attack roll and rolling damage violates the KISS rule and slows the game down for no real gain. There are already a few things that include off-turn attack rolls, and I discourage adding more to avoid combat bloat.

Any character can only take 1 reaction.

And a character looking to get off turn attacks more often already has options, adding more won’t “bloat” combat.

 

[Seramus]

And a character looking to get off turn attacks more often already has options, adding more won’t “bloat” combat.

The more rolls in general the slower things go. There must be a moderate amount of rolls for the game to resemble D&D, but even the options that currently exist could be streamlined to have less bloat.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The more rolls in general the slower things go. There must be a moderate amount of rolls for the game to resemble D&D, but even the options that currently exist could be streamlined to have less bloat.

LOL did you seem my thread about making a variant 5E I want to play? It is primarily about speeding up combat, which IME in 5E takes way too long!

If case you missed it:

D&D 5E - Making a 5E Variant I *Want* To Play (+thread)

@dave2008 , @Undrave First, this is a + thread, so please only contribute if you have something to, you know, actually contribute. I appreciate everyone who honors that and thank you. This is a BIG departure for the 5E core design framework in some ways, and I am okay with that. There is a lot...

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