Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Hussar]

The Samurai says hello

I don't know about you, but, I meet Japanese people every day.

 

[Hussar]

And if we reflect upon it and decide we're fine with how the word is currently used?

We, as a hobby? Fair enough. Obviously not every issue that gets brought up needs action. "We" as in, "Me" decides that "we" are fine with it and ignores all the negative elements? Well, what you do in your own games is your business, but, I wouldn't expect "our" preferences to be the deciding factor.

 

[Hussar]

I can't say I like how this sounds. Who decides when a culture is 'dead?' The descendants of ancient Celts still live. Sure, over time the cultural practices have changed and vanished, many intentionally destroyed by conquerors. But would you say the same callous thing about the South American native cultures? They were almost completely destroyed, their artefacts and traditions lost. Perhaps you should reconsider your words?

Well, perhaps a better way would be, "When a culture has been dead for so long that no one actually knows what that culture consisted of, no living people can actually directly trace their current culture to that culture, no one speaks that language, no one holds the faith of that culture, no one eats the food of that culture and the music of that culture is lost. That some of those things might survive to today is one thing, but, to claim to be part of that culture? That's a bit trickier.

But, there is another element here that's getting ignored. Samurai were brought up as an example of cultural appropriation of a dead element. Well, number one, while the samurai as a social caste ended in the late 19th century with the Meiji Restoration, the cultural elements of samurai - the code of Bushido, religion, language, art - all exist and are practiced today. It's not a dead culture.

And, there is another element that gets lost here. Borrowing from other cultures, when done respectfully, isn't a problem. Samurai in D&D are not limited to barbarian, primitive, warlike, evil groups. The Samurai as a PC class is detailed as highly cultured, the epitome of a warrior, strongly ethical and a paragon of society. Hardly a negative depiction is it?

There is more to cultural appropriation than simply coming from another culture. That's fine. We borrow stuff all the time and I, for one, am very thankful that I don't have to just eat English food. I love souvlaki. Double loves me some blues music. That's perfectly fine and no problem.

The problem is when the borrowed element is then indelibly linked to negative stereotypes. Imagine a D&D where paladins are described as rapacious murderers whose greatest duty is to exterminate any non-believer in service to their cleric lords who dine on the blood of the children of their enemies and ritualistically sacrifice captives before engaging in rape to spread the seed of the faithful as far as possible.

Incredibly negative view of faith right? Would never get off the ground. Yet, that's how shaman are described. Lizardfolk shaman do exactly this - although they lack paladins. EVIL clerics might do this, but, that's counter balanced by the fact that you have GOOD clerics too. But, where are the good shaman? Where are the shaman of peaceful, caring cultures? Oh, right, in D&D, shaman can only be part of rapacious, murderous races that torture, kill and destroy where ever they go.

But, apparently, that's a perfectly acceptable depiction of shaman because it's just a game right? These things don't really exist, so, it's perfectly fine. Don't do it to OUR cultural heritage, because that would be bad, but, other people's cultural heritages? Oh, that's perfectly fine because everyone knows that other people's cultures and heritages aren't really important.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, perhaps a better way would be, "When a culture has been dead for so long that no one actually knows what that culture consisted of, no living people can actually directly trace their current culture to that culture, no one speaks that language, no one holds the faith of that culture, no one eats the food of that culture and the music of that culture is lost. That some of those things might survive to today is one thing, but, to claim to be part of that culture? That's a bit trickier.

That Finnish Mythology I mentioned, it is barely remembered folklore, about as relevant to modern Finns than ancient druids to the modern Irish. And if someone would mine that mythology for a fantasy game, I obviously wouldn't mind, I might be pleased. (And D&D has done this. Mielikki is an ancient Finnish forest goddess.) But if the stated rationale why it was OK to do so was that the the culture was a cadaver ripe for plundering then I might be somewhat less thrilled. I fully get that temporal distance in these things matters, someone's living traditions are more important than ancient history, but the difference also isn't that clear cut. And considering that Celtic culture and language has historically been targeted by systematic attempts to eliminate it, your proclamation came across as a tad insensitive.

But, there is another element here that's getting ignored. Samurai were brought up as an example of cultural appropriation of a dead element. Well, number one, while the samurai as a social caste ended in the late 19th century with the Meiji Restoration, the cultural elements of samurai - the code of Bushido, religion, language, art - all exist and are practiced today. It's not a dead culture.

And, there is another element that gets lost here. Borrowing from other cultures, when done respectfully, isn't a problem. Samurai in D&D are not limited to barbarian, primitive, warlike, evil groups. The Samurai as a PC class is detailed as highly cultured, the epitome of a warrior, strongly ethical and a paragon of society. Hardly a negative depiction is it?

There is more to cultural appropriation than simply coming from another culture. That's fine. We borrow stuff all the time and I, for one, am very thankful that I don't have to just eat English food. I love souvlaki. Double loves me some blues music. That's perfectly fine and no problem.

Sure.

The problem is when the borrowed element is then indelibly linked to negative stereotypes. Imagine a D&D where paladins are described as rapacious murderers whose greatest duty is to exterminate any non-believer in service to their cleric lords who dine on the blood of the children of their enemies and ritualistically sacrifice captives before engaging in rape to spread the seed of the faithful as far as possible.

Hey, with crusaders you can either get 'historically accurate' or 'respectful!' Because 'both' is not an option!

Incredibly negative view of faith right? Would never get off the ground. Yet, that's how shaman are described. Lizardfolk shaman do exactly this - although they lack paladins. EVIL clerics might do this, but, that's counter balanced by the fact that you have GOOD clerics too. But, where are the good shaman? Where are the shaman of peaceful, caring cultures? Oh, right, in D&D, shaman can only be part of rapacious, murderous races that torture, kill and destroy where ever they go.

But, apparently, that's a perfectly acceptable depiction of shaman because it's just a game right? These things don't really exist, so, it's perfectly fine. Don't do it to OUR cultural heritage, because that would be bad, but, other people's cultural heritages? Oh, that's perfectly fine because everyone knows that other people's cultures and heritages aren't really important.

Yeah, I fully agree. Having shamans in the game is not an issue, that only 'savage monsters' have shamans most definitely is!

 

[SkidAce]

Just for the record, and consideration...

My elves have always had shaman, and the lizardman paladin that joined the group is one of their favorite NPCs.

(Oh side note, Dragonbait was a paladin....)

So there have been examples of "good" flavored uses of these terms for a long time.

So I don't feel (IMO) that shaman is as much of a problem as some of the other racial, cultural, societal, terms we have been debating are.

But never hurts to reflect upon such things....

 

[Maxperson]

We are influenced by the media we partake in, usually in small subtle ways. Games are art and like all other art forms they can move us. Fiction is not real, but it says stuff about real stuff even when it is not trying to.

I can guarantee you that not one time has anything in D&D(or any other RPG) influenced how I view or treat a real world group Not even a little bit.

 

[Maxperson]

In the US, there's a very strong correlation between race and ethnicity and socio-economic status. Appropriating in general may not be great. Doing so from folks who are generally lower on the socio-economic ladder than you is an abuse of your higher status.

How is it an abuse? If I appropriate the Japanese Tea Ceremony for my game and nobody outside of my group ever hears about it, who is hurt by it? How are people who have no idea what was done abused? For that matter, a lot of times something is appropriated, because the person doing the appropriation admires that aspect of the other culture and wants to incorporate it into his life. How is such respect an abuse?

 

[Fenris-77]

If it's done with respect you're generally going to avoid accusations if appropriation.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

If it's done with respect you're generally going to avoid accusations if appropriation.

I generally agree, but sometimes even if done with respect, if it's still offensive, it's on the person doing the offensive act for being ignorant.

 

[Fenris-77]

I generally agree, but sometimes even if done with respect, if it's still offensive, it's on the person doing the offensive act for being ignorant.

If it's done with respect, and with knowledge of the culture it's coming from, then ignorance isnt a charge that can be leveled, is it?