Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[TheSword]

Your post here is a good example about failing to critically read text. My primary is issue is less with shamans per se, but with how indigenous cultures have had the term "shaman" misapplied to their spiritual leaders, their cultural desire to resist that imposed label, and the harm that it causes them. My other issue, which is one that actual anthropologists are struggling with in their field, pertains to assumptions around shamanism, how language around it is framed and built in with cultural assumptions and spiritual hierarchies. If anthropologists see actual harm in how they discuss shamanism, do you think that TTRPGs, which borrowed many of these older assumptions, are free of (unintentional) foul play? Or is this a Tertullian argument to the effect of "What does Athens have to do with Jerusalem?"

Instead of suggesting that this disagreement is because I don’t/can’t read critically. Let’s instead assume that we disagree.

I think it’s perfectly acceptable for different groups to have different uses for words. Particularly within academic circles. It is appropriate for anthropologists to be extremely precise when studying real world religions. It isn’t necessary for people looking for inspiration for fiction, or trying to name something in a computer game.

The fantasy gaming industry isn’t best placed to be cutting edge regarding academic debate in naming conventions. As a general rule it is massively derivative and takes inspiration from a wide range of sources, including a few thousand years of history, the complete body of fiction and the general public awareness.

These things will change when popular culture changes, perhaps in fits in starts, but it will follow. Expecting rpgs to set popular culture instead of responding to it is probably wishful thinking.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I would not mind "shaman" being an in-game title if it better reflected what shamanism as a term is meant to describe rather than being synonymous with "Primitive Priest/Cleric" or "Half-baked Druid." Again, I think that 4e established a consistent tone with the Primal source as being derived from spirits. Druids, Shamans, Barbarians, and Wardens alike were shamanistic in that their powers derived from the spirits of the Material Plane. This was a mythic cosmology closer in affinity to the likes of RuneQuest, which also treats animism well.

Looking closer at the Lizardfolk spiritual practices, there is not really a sense that the shamans are not so much dealing with spirits, but, rather, with their deity Semaunya:

So is the term "shaman" actually meant to be a substitute for "primitive cleric" here rather than druids?

It is indeed weird to describe a priests dedicated to a single god as shaman. Calling these lizardfolk priests shamans seem like a misnomer, probably arising from some rather questionable assumptions. The whole lizardfolk lore seems pretty suspect.

And yeah, I like the 'primal power source' logic, though I still feel that because D&D version of druid already contains many trappings associated with shamanism, having a separate shaman class would be weird.

 

[Aldarc]

It isn’t necessary for people looking for inspiration for fiction, or trying to name something in a computer game.

The fantasy gaming industry isn’t best placed to be cutting edge regarding academic debate in naming conventions. As a general rule it is massively derivative and takes inspiration from a wide range of sources, including a few thousand years of history, the complete body of fiction and the general public awareness.

These things will change when popular culture changes, perhaps in fits in starts, but it will follow. Expecting rpgs to set popular culture instead of responding to it is probably wishful thinking.

The problem is that (1) a fair number of our fictional tropes in fantasy are rooted in racist, colonial baggage and (2) that our hobby, as a whole, has mostly turned a blind eye to the ubiquitous presence of these problematic tropes while also being resistant to changing them. Other popular media are changing and reflecting on these tropes at a much faster pace than D&D. I think that it is reasonable to expect that D&D should walk alongside popular culture rather than getting dragged unwillingly behind it, particularly if we want to regard our hobby as contemporaneously relevant and engaging.

 

[Hussar]

Heh. I was just thinking about how "other media" has had to change. I teach ESL and have done so for about 25 years. Cultural misappropriation and cultural imperialism have been issues in the field since I started teaching. We've constantly had to revise syllabi, textbooks are constantly being rewritten and amended, and there is a constant discussion (at least as acrimonious as anything you'll see here) over what is and is not appropriate in a textbook.

I sometimes forget that this sort of thing is kinda new to people. Taking the "shaman" example, it's not a "widely used term" in D&D. At least not in 5e D&D. It's only used SEVEN TIMES. That's it. Cutting it out (with the option of adding it back in later of course - there's nothing saying you can't bring something back later) is a minor ripple in the text.

The biggest issue here is that people get emotionally attached to various terminology and lose perspective.

 

[TheSword]

The problem is that (1) a fair number of our fictional tropes in fantasy are rooted in racist, colonial baggage and (2) that our hobby, as a whole, has mostly turned a blind eye to the ubiquitous presence of these problematic tropes while also being resistant to changing them. Other popular media are changing and reflecting on these tropes at a much faster pace than D&D. I think that it is reasonable to expect that D&D should walk alongside popular culture rather than getting dragged unwillingly behind it, particularly if we want to regard our hobby as contemporaneously relevant and engaging.

The extent at which cultural appropriation is a bad thing is very much a live debate. We aren’t talking about the Benin Bronzes here. We are talking about the usage of words. More so, the use of words for fiction. The issue is not resolved and to expect a derivative game like this to be ahead of the curve is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[TheSword]

Heh. I was just thinking about how "other media" has had to change. I teach ESL and have done so for about 25 years. Cultural misappropriation and cultural imperialism have been issues in the field since I started teaching. We've constantly had to revise syllabi, textbooks are constantly being rewritten and amended, and there is a constant discussion (at least as acrimonious as anything you'll see here) over what is and is not appropriate in a textbook.

I sometimes forget that this sort of thing is kinda new to people. Taking the "shaman" example, it's not a "widely used term" in D&D. At least not in 5e D&D. It's only used SEVEN TIMES. That's it. Cutting it out (with the option of adding it back in later of course - there's nothing saying you can't bring something back later) is a minor ripple in the text.

The biggest issue here is that people get emotionally attached to various terminology and lose perspective.

It is a wildly used term in fantasy gaming though. You are expect D&D to exercise an academic standard of rigor that the industry as a whole doesn’t subscribe to.

You keep repeating seven times, as if it isnt referenced over and over again in dozens of products and settings. D&D 5e is set in a context of 30 years worth of PDFs still available.

 

[Aldarc]

The extent at which cultural appropriation is a bad thing is very much a live debate. We aren’t talking about the Benin Bronzes here. We are talking about the usage of words. More so, the use of words for fiction. The issue is not resolved and to expect a derivative game like this to be ahead of the curve is an unreasonable expectation.

Stop exaggerating the issue, please. It doesn't have to be ahead of the curve. I have consistently been asking for people in our hobby to critically reflect and consider where along the curve's placement it is. That is hardly requiring it to be ahead of the curve, only that it shows a willingness to walk forward on its own feet without being dragged behind.

 

[TheSword]

Stop exaggerating the issue, please. It doesn't have to be ahead of the curve. I have consistently been asking for people in our hobby to critically reflect and consider where along the curve's placement it is. That is hardly requiring it to be ahead of the curve, only that it shows a willingness to walk forward on its own feet without being dragged behind.

Who decides where the curve lies? Academia? Twitter? You?

 

[pemerton]

The fantasy gaming industry isn’t best placed to be cutting edge regarding academic debate in naming conventions. As a general rule it is massively derivative and takes inspiration from a wide range of sources, including a few thousand years of history, the complete body of fiction and the general public awareness.

These things will change when popular culture changes, perhaps in fits in starts, but it will follow. Expecting rpgs to set popular culture instead of responding to it is probably wishful thinking.

The problem is that (1) a fair number of our fictional tropes in fantasy are rooted in racist, colonial baggage and (2) that our hobby, as a whole, has mostly turned a blind eye to the ubiquitous presence of these problematic tropes while also being resistant to changing them. Other popular media are changing and reflecting on these tropes at a much faster pace than D&D. I think that it is reasonable to expect that D&D should walk alongside popular culture rather than getting dragged unwillingly behind it, particularly if we want to regard our hobby as contemporaneously relevant and engaging.

Further to Aldarc's post: D&D is as much a part of popular culture as any other cultural artefact (short of a few really big films). Talking about "popular culture" changing without talking about any particular part of it - such as D&D - changing makes little sense to me.

 

[Aldarc]

Who decides where the curve lies? Academia? Twitter? You?

That is a good question. Since you initially brought up being ahead of the curve, presumably you can answer: who do you think decides where it lies?

And regardless of who decides, was my expectation unreasonable that our hobby considers its placement along the curve? Is it unreasonable to expect that hobby walks forward on its own without having to be dragged along as dead weight by the rest of popular culture, to which D&D belongs? Are you suggesting that our hobby should remain ignorant of the curve and its placement therein? Should we not know its contours? Or is the question of “who decides?” not really being asked in good faith? Is it yet another rhetorical stonewalling tactic meant to send the conversation down an irrelevant spiral of slippery slope arguments? So what purpose does your question here really serve in this discussion, TheSword?

What do you really want TheSword out of this conversation? That things stay the same in our hobby? You can be honest if that’s truly what you want. That we all refrain from thinking critically about our hobby? Why does it clearly make you so clearly uncomfortable that people are reflecting on our hobby’s reliance on problematic pulp tropes and language? Why does a hobby that relishes in vanquishing undead in deepest, dark dungeons so afraid of confronting the skeletons in its own closet?

All that said, I apologize that asking people in our hobby to think about our use of language in tropes in our fantasy elf games. I realize now that this apparently an unreasonable request that is tantamount to asking for the moon.