Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

[Raunalyn]

@Doug McCrae has answered this more fully than I can, so, I won't repeat what he has said.

Funny thing is, that's probably the third time, at least, in this thread, he's had to repeat himself because people, purporting to be knowledgeable in the issue keep coming in, obviously not having done any basic research, demanding to see proof.

I didn't purport to be knowledgeable; I simply asked for evidence. I thanked @Doug McCrae when he presented that evidence. Maybe you should refrain from accusing others of something when you are going to deliberately misinterpret their comment.

But, hey, @Raunalyn, I know for a fact that you hold some pretty strong opinions on these issues. Opinions you've been freely sharing elsewhere. So, would you care to freely share your views here? Perhaps you could present where you are coming from and what opinions you hold on the issue?

Since you brought it up; what exactly would those opinions be? Are you somehow able to read my thoughts through the internet?

As you've clearly demonstrated here and elsewhere, if someone has an opinion that you don't agree with presents and alternate point of view, you immediately attack that individual personally and do not present a clear and cogent argument. They are simply badwrong, evil, etc.

But if you would like to know my opinion on this particular matter; I think the needless polarization and making a mountain out of a molehill are not necessary; there are far worse things to concerns ourselves about than what is being written in a fictional game universe.

Another opinion I will freely share; since you are trying to bring our personal disagreement here, I will refrain from further discussion with you. I'm sure the other readers, commentors, and moderators would appreciate that. If you would like to take our personal disagreement private so that we can discuss it, feel free.

 

[jasper]

Disagree @Hussar. Shaman should just be a title. Not a class. No additional lore. Leave it be. Shaman in the game has been altered from the original meaning.

 

[TheSword]

Don't strawman me, please.
I said "I certainly wouldn't want a Dark Sun book to give us detailed rules for slave trading, specifically, but I wouldn't want the book to just pretend slavery doesn't exist in the setting, either". Respond to this, not to a made up position.
To rephrase what I already expressed: I agree with not having any game mechanics for slave trade, if that's what you're suggesting.
I'm not ok with the word "slave" being banned from the book for sensitivity reasons, if that's what you're suggesting. Slavery exists in Dark Sun, it's an evil act to engage in it, only obviously evil PCs should ever really consider it. Kinda like mass murdering innocents.

Wether the murder of innocents (a typical very evil act that happens in D&D) is better or worse than slave trading, is extremely debatable, I think, and we probably shouldn't debate it at all.

No strawmaning taking place here. You responded to this quote...

No one wants to see the next Dark Sun campaign feature our plucky adventurers setting up their own slave triangle.

At no point did I say we would pretend slavery didn’t exist or remove it from the game.

 

[Olrox17]

At no point did I say we would pretend slavery didn’t exist or remove it from the game.

All right. I just wanted to understand if you were talking about dedicated game mechanics or the whole concept in general. That clears it up for me.

 

[Hussar]

I didn't purport to be knowledgeable; I simply asked for evidence. I thanked @Doug McCrae when he presented that evidence. Maybe you should refrain from accusing others of something when you are going to deliberately misinterpret their comment.



Since you brought it up; what exactly would those opinions be? Are you somehow able to read my thoughts through the internet?

As you've clearly demonstrated here and elsewhere, if someone has an opinion that you don't agree with presents and alternate point of view, you immediately attack that individual personally and do not present a clear and cogent argument. They are simply badwrong, evil, etc.

But if you would like to know my opinion on this particular matter; I think the needless polarization and making a mountain out of a molehill are not necessary; there are far worse things to concerns ourselves about than what is being written in a fictional game universe.

Another opinion I will freely share; since you are trying to bring our personal disagreement here, I will refrain from further discussion with you. I'm sure the other readers, commentors, and moderators would appreciate that. If you would like to take our personal disagreement private so that we can discuss it, feel free.

Well, @Raunalyn, you twice specifically quoted me in this thread, not to ask any questions, but, to specifically call me out and attack me. I'm not really sure that you get to claim that I'm attacking people. But, hey, you're apparently the one who seems to feel the need to air dirty laundry here by calling me out.

You claimed that I was engaging in hyperbole without any evidence. Yet, when you get shown the evidence, you simply double down to claim that I'll attack people I don't agree with. Dude, you're the one with issues here, apparently. I politely offered you a platform with which to present your viewpoint, which, apparently is an attack as well.

I have no further comment really. You jumped into the middle of a conversation, accused me of making baseless claims that were instantly proven to be 100% false, and then continue to bait me. Feel free to continue to add to the conversation, but, let's not make this personal, no?

 

[Hussar]

Disagree @Hussar. Shaman should just be a title. Not a class. No additional lore. Leave it be. Shaman in the game has been altered from the original meaning.

Well, I can't really disagree with your point. Shaman have been altered from the original meaning. Shaman in 5e mean "religious leader of evil, violent, primitive groups." I'm not really sure that's a meaning that we want to attach to the term to be honest. Druid works better since druids are shown to be broadly applicable to all sorts of cultures and backgrounds. By sticking with this one meaning, it's not exactly culturally sensitive is it?

 

[Raunalyn]

Well, @Raunalyn, you twice specifically quoted me in this thread, not to ask any questions, but, to specifically call me out and attack me. I'm not really sure that you get to claim that I'm attacking people. But, hey, you're apparently the one who seems to feel the need to air dirty laundry here by calling me out.

For accusing others of doing the exact same thing you were doing. If you don't like that being pointed out, perhaps you should stop the intellectual dishonesty.

You claimed that I was engaging in hyperbole without any evidence. Yet, when you get shown the evidence, you simply double down to claim that I'll attack people I don't agree with. Dude, you're the one with issues here, apparently. I politely offered you a platform with which to present your viewpoint, which, apparently is an attack as well.

Refrain from strawmen. I asked if you were engaging in hyperbole; I did not claim you were...there is a huge difference. And when I was presented evidence, I thanked Doug and let it go. And then you went and proved my point by making a personal attack...good job. Your "polite" platform was an attempt to bring a personal matter here, which I will not do.

I have no further comment really. You jumped into the middle of a conversation, accused me of making baseless claims that were instantly proven to be 100% false, and then continue to bait me. Feel free to continue to add to the conversation, but, let's not make this personal, no?

I have no further comment either, especially considering that you made a claim about me that is clearly false (I didn't make a baseless claim about you that was instantly proven 100% false). If you'd like to take this private, we can. But please stop bringing your personal beef with me (since you were the one who brought that up originally) to the forum. I won't ask again.

 

[Voadam]

Elvis yoinked black blues music and made billions of dollars on it while black artists couldn't even get played on the radio. Is that a bad consequence or not?

As you present it, no. Its a correlation, not a causation.

If they were not getting money or being played on the radio before then why attribute their continued exclusion as a consequence of his actions? There would be a stronger argument about economic competition harm if they had been making money but then could not because people switched from them to him.

There are different views on his impact for black artists.

There is a decent argument that Elvis's music had a positive impact.

Here is a decent discussion of his impact on black artists.

Up to the mid-1950s black artists had sold minuscule amounts of their recorded music relative to the national market potential. Black songwriters had mostly limited horizons and could only eke out a living. But after Presley purchased the music of African American Otis Blackwell and had his "Gladys Music" company hire talented black songwriter Claude Demetrius, the industry underwent a dramatic change.

The problem would be the systemic suppression of black artists, not white ones adopting black art.

 

[jasper]

Well, I can't really disagree with your point. Shaman have been altered from the original meaning. Shaman in 5e mean "religious leader of evil, violent, primitive groups." I'm not really sure that's a meaning that we want to attach to the term to be honest. Druid works better since druids are shown to be broadly applicable to all sorts of cultures and backgrounds. By sticking with this one meaning, it's not exactly culturally sensitive is it?

you forgot a word Shaman in 5e mean "religious leader of evil, violent, primitive FANTASY groups." . And as soon as the lizardmen drop their human flesh suit I will worry about being culturally sensitive.

 

[Olrox17]

you forgot a word Shaman in 5e mean "religious leader of evil, violent, primitive FANTASY groups." . And as soon as the lizardmen drop their human flesh suit I will worry about being culturally sensitive.

Also, I think that the evil label in that bit you quoted should be flat out removed. The shaman title in the MM is used for lizardfolk, stone giants and quaggoths, none of which are evil.