D&D General What if the Blood War ended? (Possible Outcomes Discussion)

[dave2008]

But the gods can only do so much, because even if they are 10x as powerful as the most powerful demon, there are 12 demons working together to kill the god, and a horde of lesser demons to fight the god's angels.

Of course we don't know that in 5e. Greater gods could be so powerful that powerful demons and devils are nothing to them. We just don't know. However,...

But hell, in my worlds, the Blood War isn't a thing, and the fiends/demons (all fiends are just called demons or fiends, when referring to the creature type, there is no "a fiend for every alignment of evil" diagram) are either instead at war with the beings of the Far Realm, or are simply a simmering pot of danger that could end the world if things go really bad and the wrong seals get broken. (Sometimes its the Unseelie Fey who are holding back the tides of cosmic horror, but it's always a group that is either evil or is seen as a threat to Free Folk)

...much like you I don't even use the blood war in my worlds. There are many flavors or evil, but its the entities of good and their faithful that keep them at bay, not a war among fiends.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Of course we don't know that in 5e. Greater gods could be so powerful that powerful demons and devils are nothing to them. We just don't know. However,...

...much like you I don't even use the blood war in my worlds. There are many flavors or evil, but its the entities of good and their faithful that keep them at bay, not a war among fiends.

Exactly. I never liked the whole idea of a making demons into part of a wagon wheel of "outsiders" with a "creature per alignment", or the idea of good requiring evil to be disorganized and self-defeating in order to survive.

 

[Minigiant]

No, I think the point is different versions of big A have different goals (in the lore). So it definitely matters if it is on the wining side.

Also, it is relevant that the Archfiends and Demon Lords, in "5e canon," are only about as strong as lesser gods (MM pg 67). The greater gods appear to be much stronger (their avatars would be similar to lesser gods, pg 11 of the DMG). So perhaps on that note, what happens in the blood war doesn't alter much if the gods want to get directly involved.

Exactly.
The nature of Big Asmodeus displays the temperature of the Blood War itself.

In 2e and earlier, the Blood War is a full on major conflict that could shape the whole universe. If either side wins or their join forces, the world is over. It unleashes worldbusting forces out the lower planes and initiates the end game. The demons are too numerues and Asmodeus is a secret reboot button.

In 3e and 4e Forgotten Realms, the Blood War is a minorish conflict that matters but not so much. The gods could handle a demon or devil victory. FR is a Deity vs Deity setting. Fiends are background characters.

In 4e Nethir Vale, the Blood War is a minor cold war. It's a personal gripe. Thedemon want their shard back. The devils want more shards. Either side wins and noonereally cares. As long as the Primordials stay chained up and the Stars in the Far Realm stay distant. It's Hadar and Caiphon who scares Moradin not Demogorgon or Asmodeus. Elder evils >>>>>>>>>>> Fiends

And 5e says hold my beer and makes the Blood War more of a clown shown distraction that greater gods only bother looking at because one of their temples my get knocked down. Fiends are so weak.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Okay, I've been working a ton on what the world, in my version of the events, would look like 1,000 years into the future. The world's name has been changed a bit, no longer Toril, but now Tor-eal (Tohr-ee-ahl).

D&D General - Tor-eal (1000 years after the Devils win the Blood War)

Welcome to Tor-eal (pronounced tohr-ee-ahl). A strange world, with nearly no gods, no outer planes, no astral plane, and only the Elemental Planes, Ethereal Plane, and the Shadowfell and Feywild. Legends and elders say, that once, a millennia ago, there were many gods, dozens of them. There were...

www.enworld.org

It's definitely not done, and very specific to my version of events as they happen, but it's what I've got so far, and I'd just like to see what people think.

 

[Thirteenspades]

Yeah, Asmodeus is probably the largest factor for variants to the events, but only if the Devils are on the loosing side.

Coincidentally I was reading this thread and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.

 

[Thirteenspades]

Coincidentally I was reading this thread and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.

Honestly, this theory about Ahriman- that he created ten avatars known as Asmodeus- ties up a lot of the loose ends that come up with the Blood War.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Coincidentally I was reading this thread and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.

An interesting post, but completely misses the strength of the Devils and the weakness of the Demons; it isn't that one is organized and the other is disorganized. It is that one is united and the other is in constant conflict with itself.

The devils may plot and even fight battles together, but they are still bound by an extremely rigid hierarchical structure that keeps them focused on waging the Blood War. The demons have no such structure, and are actually in constant war with each other. The Demon Lords are trying to destroy each other just as much as invade hell, and the smarter ones are actually more focused on fighting in the Abyss as it's more likely to be successful.

It is completely true that if the Demon Lords all made an alliance with each other, they would absolutely sweep through Avernus, conquer the Nine Hells, and then likely the entire Multiverse with ease. But they can't do it; it's against their nature to hold any alliance for long, and an alliance between all the Demons is completely unheard of.

So the Devils are only ever fighting a fraction of Demons at a time, as the bulk remain in the Abyss warring against each other.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

An interesting post, but completely misses the strength of the Devils and the weakness of the Demons; it isn't that one is organized and the other is disorganized. It is that one is united and the other is in constant conflict with itself.

The devils may plot and even fight battles together, but they are still bound by an extremely rigid hierarchical structure that keeps them focused on waging the Blood War. The demons have no such structure, and are actually in constant war with each other. The Demon Lords are trying to destroy each other just as much as invade hell, and the smarter ones are actually more focused on fighting in the Abyss as it's more likely to be successful.

It is completely true that if the Demon Lords all made an alliance with each other, they would absolutely sweep through Avernus, conquer the Nine Hells, and then likely the entire Multiverse with ease. But they can't do it; it's against their nature to hold any alliance for long, and an alliance between all the Demons is completely unheard of.

So the Devils are only ever fighting a fraction of Demons at a time, as the bulk remain in the Abyss warring against each other.

Yes, that definitely is a huge flaw in the Demons, but the Devils are not completely without that factor. They're always plotting, scheming, and backstabbing each other.

 

[Minigiant]

and I knew the horrible truth the whole time... Asmodeus wants the Blood War to keep going so he can get the devil's attention off of him so Ahriman can heal from his million-year-old wounds at the bottom of Nessus. I also watched this video which just gives me the creeps to think about.

Yup. In settings with Ahriman-Asmodeus,theBlood War is a stalling tactic to keep the Celestials from invading the Nine Hell and kill him before he finishes healing.

In Nethir Vale, the Blood War barely happens as it isn't easy to get from the Abyss to the Nine Hells in the World Axis. It's too far away and demons can't trust each other enough to bring a large force that could be backstabed.

 

[Thirteenspades]

An interesting post, but completely misses the strength of the Devils and the weakness of the Demons; it isn't that one is organized and the other is disorganized. It is that one is united and the other is in constant conflict with itself.

The devils may plot and even fight battles together, but they are still bound by an extremely rigid hierarchical structure that keeps them focused on waging the Blood War. The demons have no such structure, and are actually in constant war with each other. The Demon Lords are trying to destroy each other just as much as invade hell, and the smarter ones are actually more focused on fighting in the Abyss as it's more likely to be successful.

It is completely true that if the Demon Lords all made an alliance with each other, they would absolutely sweep through Avernus, conquer the Nine Hells, and then likely the entire Multiverse with ease. But they can't do it; it's against their nature to hold any alliance for long, and an alliance between all the Demons is completely unheard of.

So the Devils are only ever fighting a fraction of Demons at a time, as the bulk remain in the Abyss warring against each other.

But the Abyss is likely way, way bigger than Hell. Since each layer is the size of a planet on both planes, you could fit hundreds of millions of demons on each of the 700+ layers, so united or divided, they would still overpower the devils if it were not for some outside force.