D&D 5E player knowlege vs character knowlege (spoiler)

[Bawylie]

You're right your DM should have asked for a skill check you should have requested one. Personally I believe this is what happens when powerful NPCs are used in adventures such as Vilandra Shadowmantle and Artus Cimber. Thats why I very rarely if ever have an NPC accompany a party of adventurers, or use known ones as antagonists or protagonists.

In closing, I think the initial exchange should have went something like this...

DM: ...She introduces herself as Valindra Shadowmantle...
YOU: I of course announced that at the table (Its Nancy Pelosi!)

Wait, is she a lich?

 

[R_J_K75]

Wait, is she a lich?

One never knows now do they?

 

[jasper]

I disagree. If I know trolls can only be killed by fire and acid, I get four choices:

1) Use fire and acid because my character thinks it might work.
2) Use fire and acid even though my character wouldn't know to use it.
3) Use fire and acid because my character would know to use it.
4) Don't use fire or acid because my character don't know what.
5) Don't use fire or acid because I think my character wouldn't know what.

Personally, I don't think anyone can differentiate between 1 and 2 or 1 and 3.

How does someone who's already read the MM meaningfully arrive at option 1?

Answer. Back In 1E I created Monster Manuals in game. It was a tome in the treasure horde. A 3 by 5 with some monsters listed on it. GP Price varied with what monster was listed. After you read the tome, you could pull out the MM during combat. Now days 5E has various Knowledge checks. I have seen Survival, Nature, History, Religion and Arcana checks being used to id the monster. So use monster checks.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Answer. Back In 1E I created Monster Manuals in game. It was a tome in the treasure horde. A 3 by 5 with some monsters listed on it. GP Price varied with what monster was listed. After you read the tome, you could pull out the MM during combat. Now days 5E has various Knowledge checks. I have seen Survival, Nature, History, Religion and Arcana checks being used to id the monster. So use monster checks.

I think that helps us with options 2-5, but doesn't get the character to option 1 (Use fire and acid because my character thinks it might work), which I see as the most important.

 

[jasper]

add...
way of 4
1) Use fire and acid because my character thinks it might work.
2) Use fire and acid even though my character wouldn't know to use it.
3) Use fire and acid because my character would know to use it.
4) Don't use fire or acid because my character don't know what.
5) Don't use fire or acid because I think my character wouldn't know what.
my reply
Now days 5E has various Knowledge checks. I have seen Survival, Nature, History, Religion and Arcana checks being used to id the monster. So use monster checks.
end of add
I think that helps us with options 2-5, but doesn't get the character to option 1 (Use fire and acid because my character thinks it might work), which I see as the most important.

Just have the player roll a knowledge check if going to bother the DM that much. So 1 is covered also. My thinking is during your level 0 training ( um hate using level 0) and your life before turning Adventurer you learned things. Occasionally these corner issues are just going to given a waiver.

 

[Li Shenron]

1. Do you think I did anything wrong and how am I supposed to play this? I can't like forget that she is an evil lich.

...

What are my odds and do you have a better idea?

The better idea is pretty much what you don't want to: forget she is an evil lich.

So you (as a player) know she is a lich. Well you (as a character) don't. And that's exactly how you need to roleplay your character. Planning to kill her is wrong roleplay because it's based on metagaming knowledge. I do not use the word "wrong" lightly here, it's not about criticizing your playing style or anything like that... it's really like you're making a consequential mistake. Assuming your PCs still know nothing, you should try to proceed as usual, which might (of course!) imply being suspicious of any new NPC, but I am sure you should not be plotting a plan to kill her because that's not what you would do if you didn't know who she was.

It should also be obvious that even when players know something from reading books in advance, they should not assume the DM uses everything by the book. Your DM might have decided that Shadowmantle is not evil, or not a lich, or maybe your adventure is set in the past and she's not yet an evil lich... heck it could even be that the DM just read the name, like it, and decided to use it for a completely different NPC! If you used your metagaming knowledge and kill this NPC, and then it turned out that she's a completely different and benevolent NPC, you would end up looking very stupid.

On the other hand, if the DM gives your character some information on this NPC, then of course you are entitled and even supposed to make decisions based on that! And it is very possible that at this point your DM has in fact slipped out that info unwillingly after you made your revelation, and confirmed that she is indeed an archvillain. If that's the case, go ahead and make plans based on what your PC knows about her. That also means, if the PCs know a lich is far beyond your capabilities, then run from her, or be prepared to fail.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

Just have the player roll a knowledge check if going to bother the DM that much. So 1 is covered also. My thinking is during your level 0 training ( um hate using level 0) and your life before turning Adventurer you learned things. Occasionally these corner issues are just going to given a waiver.

Perhaps this is where we differ. For me, the presence of corner cases, means that a system doesn't function properly and should be rebuilt from the ground up.

It's the old debate between lumpers and splitters in philosophy.

 

[WayOfTheFourElements]

The better idea is pretty much what you don't want to: forget she is an evil lich.

Excluding brain damage or years spent in D&D solitude, what is the process that one goes about to accomplish the goal of forgetting she is an evil lich?

 

[jasper]

@Mort Asked What does a player do if they know the module?

I keep my mouth SHUT. It is especially hard on some riddles when I in a group which are poor at that. Some of the players at the game store become passive until combat which is another solution.

 

[Hriston]

Outside of phrasing and syntax pedantry, filling in things that the character may know but the player does not is part of the DM's job. Whether that is what the weather outside the inn is like, to the name of the mayor of the town that the character lives in. If I think that there is a reasonable chance of the character knowing, but it isn't definite, I may call for a roll and then give information to the player about what their character knows.

I don't make a player climb up the side of the house for their character to successfully scale a cliff. I don't make a player read the Monster Manual in order for their character to know where the closest place to find bulettes is.

I consider the sort of information you’re talking about to be part of describing the environment. What the weather’s like is obviously so. I, as DM, will generally describe the general environment of the campaign milieux at the beginning of the campaign, which would include things like the mayor’s name or whether it’s known that there are bullettes nearby. This information is known generally by the inhabitants of the area because they are present in that environment and is very different from information a player might seek to ask me for based on their character’s unique backstory. I realize that some DMs feel that it’s important to control character backstory to one extent or another, but I’m very hands off in that regard, so I will usually respond to such inquiries by asking the player to divulge details about their character’s backstory that would give them access to such information, which they are free to invent. So there’s definitely information available to all the players, but they don’t have to ask me for that (unless I’ve forgotten something) because I’ve already told it to them. This is why that type of question can be annoying, because it implies that I haven’t done a good enough job of describing the environment when in actuality it represents an effort by the player to gain information that’s not present in the environment without risking their character in any way.