D&D 5E Classes that Suck

[Ashrym]

perhaps the thought process is that damage a battlemaster gets is essential to keep up with the Paladins is the world. In which case desiring both the damage and more social abilities is what the actual Request is. That’s a request I don’t find at all unreasonable.

Paladin damage relies on expending daily slots that compete with utility spells. Fight damage still comes from the extra attack and action surges from short rests.

Fighters don't need battle master for good damage it's just better damage, which I think demonstrates my point that given a choice people take damage instead of social.

It is still UA, but the Battlemaster got a few things in the Class Variants UA that solve this. Like Studious Eye and Silver Tongue. Which gives a fairly decent bonus comparable to the Royal Envoy ability.

I am aware. I gave negative feedback on a subclass front loaded with goodies adding those compared to other subclasses. I would expect better combat abilities to be added to those subclasses if the social aspects are added to battle master.

Rune knight would be the way to go with UA but neither is official, regardless.

What Chaosmancer said. They're also infinitely more interesting than your Royal Envoy ability... AND it doesn't actually make you weaker in combat to pick those options, you still have the same ammount of dice that recharge on a short rest. all you give up is some flexibility in the maneuvers you gain access to, but the bonus damage remain so it's a fair trade to me. After that, it's just a question of managing your rests properly.

The royal envoy ability does what's requested. If you don't find it interesting that's no the same thing.

Also, flip the coin: the bannaret does not make the PC weaker in social encounters like a battle master does. Both are relative.

No subclass makes a fighter weaker in combat. They each add. Adding less combat than another subclass in favor of social aspects is trading off one for the other. Neither has made the base class weaker. Wanting the damage of one and the social benefits of another is wanting to eat your cake and have it too.

 

[FrogReaver]

Paladin damage relies on expending daily slots that compete with utility spells. Fight damage still comes from the extra attack and action surges from short rests.

Fighters don't need battle master for good damage it's just better damage, which I think demonstrates my point that given a choice people take damage instead of social.



I am aware. I gave negative feedback on a subclass front loaded with goodies adding those compared to other subclasses. I would expect better combat abilities to be added to those subclasses if the social aspects are added to battle master.

Rune knight would be the way to go with UA but neither is official, regardless.



The royal envoy ability does what's requested. If you don't find it interesting that's no the same thing.

Also, flip the coin: the bannaret does not make the PC weaker in social encounters like a battle master does. Both are relative.

No subclass makes a fighter weaker in combat. They each add. Adding less combat than another subclass in favor of social aspects is trading off one for the other. Neither has made the base class weaker. Wanting the damage of one and the social benefits of another is wanting to eat your cake and have it too.

I guess that means Paladins have their cake and eat it too.

 

[Undrave]

No subclass makes a fighter weaker in combat. They each add. Adding less combat than another subclass in favor of social aspects is trading off one for the other. Neither has made the base class weaker. Wanting the damage of one and the social benefits of another is wanting to eat your cake and have it too.

First of all, I still don't get why D&D even balance things like this, why one must suck at Fighting to be useful when there's no Fighting. Even if you think it's an important balancing tool, I think the Fighter's Fighteriness is over valued compared to its lack of Social graces (same with the Barbarian, but at least one of its subclass has rituals that could technically be useful).

The Paladin you mention? Yeah his social utility spells compete with Smites... but that competition only lasts until the next long rest. If you're spending multiple days in the city and don't expect to get into any fights, then you're not penalized for spending spell slots on social tricks until a surprise fight breaks out... but that aspect to me is a lot more balanced than what the Fighter gets.

Fighters don't get that opportunity, they're locked in. Which is why the Battlemaster Maneuver that give skill bonus are actually a good thing.

And the PDK doesn't actually have 'social aspects'. It gets ONE skill proficiency with a bonus that will probably just compensate for having subpar Charisma (you don't need Charisma for anything else as a PDK, so why should you waste points on it?). Something the Samurai also gets while still being solid in battle. The Battlemaster ALSO gets a non-damage based ability at level 7, it's not particularly rare or exceptional.

 

[Minigiant]

First of all, I still don't get why D&D even balance things like this, why one must suck at Fighting to be useful when there's no Fighting. Even if you think it's an important balancing tool, I think the Fighter's Fighteriness is over valued compared to its lack of Social graces (same with the Barbarian, but at least one of its subclass has rituals that could technically be useful).

The Paladin you mention? Yeah his social utility spells compete with Smites... but that competition only lasts until the next long rest. If you're spending multiple days in the city and don't expect to get into any fights, then you're not penalized for spending spell slots on social tricks until a surprise fight breaks out... but that aspect to me is a lot more balanced than what the Fighter gets.

Fighters don't get that opportunity, they're locked in. Which is why the Battlemaster Maneuver that give skill bonus are actually a good thing.

And the PDK doesn't actually have 'social aspects'. It gets ONE skill proficiency with a bonus that will probably just compensate for having subpar Charisma (you don't need Charisma for anything else as a PDK, so why should you waste points on it?). Something the Samurai also gets while still being solid in battle. The Battlemaster ALSO gets a non-damage based ability at level 7, it's not particularly rare or exceptional.

Personally, I always thought Fighter should get a base bonus to Charisma checks due to their exercise routines, diet and self care giving them a more ideal shape physically for their race.

Hotness
Starting at the 8th level, your extreme focus on diet, exercise, and meditation makes you dang sexy. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that relies on physical appearance.

 

[Asisreo]

I guess that means Paladins have their cake and eat it too.

Paladins don't really get much in terms of social features. They're a charisma caster so that naturally gets a check mark in the ability check front but, well, their features and spells are Geas and Zone of Truth. Maybe Command, but it's hardly anything I'd consider to be a social override.

Zone of Truth is basically just a lie detector spell and Geas is basically a charm but the target can just choose to ignore it and take the...what? 22 damage a day which they immediately recover from a long rest. It basically holds only lower level monster hostage which is odd since at level 17-20, nothing important enough to use your 5th-level spell on is going to be killed with 22 psychic damage.

The paladin also has very limited spells known. A maximum of 15. By time they get access to Zone of Truth, they must choose roughly 6 spells to have, not alot at all. While Zone of Truth may be on there, it just might not.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The paladin also has very limited spells known. A maximum of 15. By time they get access to Zone of Truth, they must choose roughly 6 spells to have, not alot at all. While Zone of Truth may be on there, it just might not.

True, but don't forget their oath spells. That gives them a maximum of 25 prepared spells; not known, BTW, I assume you just misspoke.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not one class deserves the "suck" label. All of them are fun to play and do well in 5e. Some of them are mechanically better at damage, but A) that still doesn't make the ones that do less "suck", and B) the game is far more than damage.

Just as a thought experiment, what are the classes that aren't mechanically better at damage better at?

 

[Undrave]

Paladins don't really get much in terms of social features. They're a charisma caster so that naturally gets a check mark in the ability check front but, well, their features and spells are Geas and Zone of Truth. Maybe Command, but it's hardly anything I'd consider to be a social override.

Zone of Truth is basically just a lie detector spell and Geas is basically a charm but the target can just choose to ignore it and take the...what? 22 damage a day which they immediately recover from a long rest. It basically holds only lower level monster hostage which is odd since at level 17-20, nothing important enough to use your 5th-level spell on is going to be killed with 22 psychic damage.

The paladin also has very limited spells known. A maximum of 15. By time they get access to Zone of Truth, they must choose roughly 6 spells to have, not alot at all. While Zone of Truth may be on there, it just might not.

It doesn't seem like it at first glance, but Lay on Hands can be pretty useful in social situation, since you can use it to cure a disease or neutralize a poison. Curing someone of a disease is a good way to get favors you know. Divine Sense is also useful in some niche situations...

The Oath of the Ancient Paladin gets Speak with Animals, which opens up all sorts of source of information.

And they got motivation to get good CHA. Also they generally good STR, which is a positive because, supposedly, good Athletics checks count as 'being good at exploration'? It's been mentionned in this thread in regard to fighter, even though I've never encountered a STR check that was ever critical to a challenge...or one that could only be accomplished by a single individual... but I guess that's an issue for another day.

And speaking of other non-combat uses, their Detect spells and Purify Food and Drink are also useful out of combat.

 

[Maxperson]

Just as a thought experiment, what are the classes that aren't mechanically better at damage better at?

It doesn't really matter. The point is that 5e is designed so that every class in the PHB does well at the game and isn't overwhelmed by the output of any other class. That some classes do better at damage doesn't make any class suck. No class sucks in 5e.

 

[Hohige]

Really they went soft on Metamagic

No Delay Spell
No Echoing Spell
No Enhance Spell
No Guided Spell
No Intensify Spell
No Maximize Spell
No Repeat Spell
No Sudden Spell
No Widen Spell

?
All 3.5 feats that is gone.