D&D 5E Classes that Suck

[Chaosmancer]

Why is it unfair?

I feel that when the argument is made about how much social/utility abilities someone has, the points that everyone gets basic competency and those without extra has no competency gets mangled around.

This game is a team game up until combat ends, at which point it somehow becomes a single player game with multiple people.

A bard, by himself, against a CR-appropriate enemy (CR1 vs level 4 bard) is mostly screwed. They have good abilities in combat but they can't confirm a one-round kill easily and they can get wrecked when a monster gets within melee. They can maybe survive, but it's a toss-up and not a good situation.

A fighter against a CR-appropriate enemy can survive and probably kill it with minimal HP loss. They have higher damage actions and their defenses are naturally good enough to take quite a few blows. They're definitely in better shape than a bard. Have you never wondered why a bard only gets basic combat competency while a fighter could survive one-on-one fights without much concern? Probably not, because it's about being a team. In a team, the bard can do wonderful things. Not just buffs, they can use any concentration spell without as much threat of concentration loss.

A bard is more competent with teammates. The party is stronger than the sum of their parts.

The same goes for social and exploration. Some are more competent at something separately but they all become greater together. When the dwarf doesn't care how charming the paladin is because he bears the symbol of a diety who the dwarf hates (which is really everyone), the fighter steps in and says "Fine, then it shall be a test of who can drink the most ale!" Then the cleric casts Protection from poison to help, but you're the one who has to drink. The battle of the centuries, a likely success because your friends helped. Just like in combat.

When the ancient ruins' entrance is booby-trapped, the fighter's natural hardiness comes in handy. A wizard may have not even stood a chance against it, taking more than half their health while taking only a quarter of yours.

The Bard has plenty of ways to deal with a single CR 1 enemy. Especially at level 4.

The fighter has no way to assist outside of combat without GM fiat. I mean, really your example is the fighter declaring he'll have a drinking contest? How about this, the dwarf who wants nothing to do with the party because they despise the Paladin and the Cleric says "No! Get out of my face." Now what does the fighter do? Insist?

Also, way to get immediately disqualifed and spat upon by casting magic on the fighter right before the context begins. That just ruined any chance of that plan working (and it was a pretty crap plan to begin with). I mean, you seem to be assuming that the Fighter can just declare a contest and the other person is just going to agree.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've found that talking doesn't take the long. Only when there's an info dump or monologue do I find talking to take more than 2-5 minutes. It's usually introductions, desires, rolls, conclusion. This is for 1-to-1 interactions, of course. With something like the king or patron, everyone is involved.

Besides, when someone is talking, the only reason why everyone shouldn't be involved is because they aren't there. Isn't it kinda ominous that there's a man that can kill the average commoner with his bare hands being completely silent in the background of conversations? Like, the sorcerer is having a grand ole time with the merchant while this man that's probably covered in guts said "Hello, name's Richard." And stares at the merchant the entire time? Usually, everyone in the proximity of the conversation is involved.

Not in my experience. Generally the conversations take a lot longer than that, minimum 5 minutes if it is just a quick interaction, and quite often the majority of the party is just lurking and waiting.

This is what I meant when I said that you can go about the situation however you want. If you want to be in a conversation, just lean into what you want to do.

Your character, presumably, is not unique solely from their class. If I were to take 2 fighters with the exact same builds, I doubt they'd also be the exact same character with the same backgrounds, past, personality, and goals.

If you're a part of the fighter's guild, you want to use that point as leverage. If you're in the military, you want to display that. Your character is unique not by virtue of which class you take or which build you make. I can assure you there's probably been very similar builds within these forums. What makes your character unique is who they are as a character. While that doesn't guarantee anything socially in terms of mechanics, it does effect how your character interacts with the world.

What's a bright-eyed wizard with a knack for curiosity doing being silent and unmoving when they meet a new character? Even if the character's CHA is 8, are you really going to break character because it would be optimal to shut up and let the sorcerer do the talking and charming? If so, fine, but I don't often see the 8 CHA characters actually never talk, they're usually the most talkative characters. Yet they steer the story despite their poor scores.

Because poor scores and minimal social features doesn't dictate how your character would act. You do. You're the master of your own character. Try to move the story along using your character, not just your character sheet.

This is not an excuse for you to be an untasteful player because it's "what your character would do." This is saying that your character needn't be charismatic to talk

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but yes, they often do just shut up and let the others talk when it is important.

Meeting the local fruit vendor? They'll talk and be in character. Need to convince the local baron to lend you support? Social Classes only. I see it all the time.

And most people don't put nearly as much thought into their backstory to give you as the DM anything to latch onto in terms of a military unit or anything else, and even if they did, that cannot possibly apply even in most situations.


And honestly? As the guy with a 10 CHA character, who tried moving the story along with his character and not his sheet, I got burned repeatedly, to the point where I almst grabbed my DM and told them to stop having me roll the dice, because all it meant was that I was going to fail and make things worse. And that sucks. That sucks hard to have your contribution to the story being screwing things up and know that you were better off sitting down, shutting up, and not participating. Because every time you picked up the dice, and you always had to pick up the dice, you were just making things harder for everyone, and having the DM bend over backwards to not derail the story.

Call it poor DMing if you want, but that stuff sticks with you. It makes you start weighing the odds. How likely am I to make things worse, and ruin everyone else's fun, if I participate.

 

[Asisreo]

The Bard has plenty of ways to deal with a single CR 1 enemy. Especially at level 4.

The fighter has no way to assist outside of combat without GM fiat. I mean, really your example is the fighter declaring he'll have a drinking contest? How about this, the dwarf who wants nothing to do with the party because they despise the Paladin and the Cleric says "No! Get out of my face." Now what does the fighter do? Insist?

Also, way to get immediately disqualifed and spat upon by casting magic on the fighter right before the context begins. That just ruined any chance of that plan working (and it was a pretty crap plan to begin with). I mean, you seem to be assuming that the Fighter can just declare a contest and the other person is just going to agree.

Maybe. Maybe the fighter can't convince the dwarf to drink the ale. Oh well, we tried. There must be some other way to get that info, though, let's look around.

Maybe the fighter can convince the dwarf. The cleric wants to cast his spells so the fighter and cleric goes off and comes back with the buffs. Maybe the dwarf doesn't even know. Maybe the fighter is too proud to accept the buff. Maybe the fighter is a dwarf himself.

Maybe the fighter can offer a bribe and assures the dwarf the other two won't be in their way. Maybe that fails. It's the nature of the game. We don't play the game to never lose. It's fine to want to maximize success, but the game isn't about never failing.

Sometimes, nothing you try works. Now what? Well, we keep playing. Because there's still much to do.

 

[Asisreo]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but yes, they often do just shut up and let the others talk when it is important.

Meeting the local fruit vendor? They'll talk and be in character. Need to convince the local baron to lend you support? Social Classes only. I see it all the time.

And most people don't put nearly as much thought into their backstory to give you as the DM anything to latch onto in terms of a military unit or anything else, and even if they did, that cannot possibly apply even in most situations.

Honestly, it's unfortunate how little people actually seem to care about their character once the numbers become involved. Suddenly, they forget their roleplaying and think in terms of probability when they should be focused on the story.

I do it. I have low charisma characters that speak. They aren't dumb or mute, they do participate and move the story along quite a bit. The DM doesn't have me roll for the obvious stuff, though.

Something like a military rank can certainly apply everywhere. Even if you're a common footsoldier, people will likely respect you more than the bard that keeps singing about some wall of wonder.

I almst grabbed my DM and told them to stop having me roll the dice, because all it meant was that I was going to fail and make things worse.

You should do that...actually don't but you should definitely make it known that you feel that being a low charisma character in his campaign is ruining a substantial part of your game.

It's a choice a DM must make during a campaign: should he have frequent dice or rare dice in conversations. Presumably, he's choosing the one that people would enjoy, but if you're that upset, try talking to everyone in the group and him as well. Well, I'm not going to lecture you about how to talk to your DM.

But I want to make it clear that if a DM isn't on the player's side, the campaign and group is going to struggle alot. They'll want to change characters or they'll check out during big moments or they'll not show up as often. That's what really sucks. It doesn't matter if the book gives martial classes every social and utility ability in the world. I mean, it would matter but it wouldn't change the fact that the DM isn't compatible. Eventually, the books will end their guidance and the DM has to step in and say something. The DM is probably the sole decider on whether you enjoy your game or not. The mechanics matter, please don't get me wrong, but the way the mechanics are implemented will always be up to the DM.

 

[Undrave]

And honestly? As the guy with a 10 CHA character, who tried moving the story along with his character and not his sheet, I got burned repeatedly, to the point where I almst grabbed my DM and told them to stop having me roll the dice, because all it meant was that I was going to fail and make things worse. And that sucks. That sucks hard to have your contribution to the story being screwing things up and know that you were better off sitting down, shutting up, and not participating. Because every time you picked up the dice, and you always had to pick up the dice, you were just making things harder for everyone, and having the DM bend over backwards to not derail the story.

Call it poor DMing if you want, but that stuff sticks with you. It makes you start weighing the odds. How likely am I to make things worse, and ruin everyone else's fun, if I participate.

Pretty much this...

 

[doctorbadwolf]

True, but don't forget their oath spells. That gives them a maximum of 25 prepared spells; not known, BTW, I assume you just misspoke.

Yeah I’ve never in the life of 5e heard someone claim that Paladins are noticeably limited in theirs spells available on a given day.

 

[Raduin711]

In the game Samurai Shodown there are a couple of characters with animal companions: one with a hawk and another with a wolf. The animal companions were at most times considered part of the background, until the character used them as part of a special attack, which might have some kind of supernatural kick to it, like gliding a short distance by grabbing on to the hawk or sending the dog at your foe like a projectile. I wonder if animal companions might be better served this way... most of the time occupying the same square as the PC like a familiar, only emerging to do various (possibly magical) tricks. The only time the companion's stats would come into play is when it left the PC's square for whatever reason, much like a familiar.

 

[DND_Reborn]

And honestly? As the guy with a 10 CHA character, who tried moving the story along with his character and not his sheet, I got burned repeatedly, to the point where I almst grabbed my DM and told them to stop having me roll the dice, because all it meant was that I was going to fail and make things worse. And that sucks. That sucks hard to have your contribution to the story being screwing things up and know that you were better off sitting down, shutting up, and not participating. Because every time you picked up the dice, and you always had to pick up the dice, you were just making things harder for everyone, and having the DM bend over backwards to not derail the story.

Call it poor DMing if you want, but that stuff sticks with you. It makes you start weighing the odds. How likely am I to make things worse, and ruin everyone else's fun, if I participate.

I suppose this really depends. IME a DM should only be calling for a roll if there is a consequence for failure. If it is simply moving the story along, there shouldn't be any rolls IMO.

If there are consequences, and you are non-proficient with a CHA 10, why is your character making those rolls? Unless your PC is the only one there who can even speak, someone who is better at it should be doing it.

Now, can your STR 10 Wizard open an unlocked door to move into the next room? Of course, and no roll should be needed. But does your STR 10 Wizard try to break open doors? No. Because your STR 18 Barbarian is better at it. Your wizard opening an unlocked door is your CHA 10 PC moving the story along, the wizard trying to break a door down is when your CHA 10 PC should be making a roll.

If your DM is making you roll for things you really shouldn't need to roll for, I would certainly point that out, but otherwise if you want your PC to participate more when consequences are an issue, build your PC accordingly.

 

[Minigiant]

In the game Samurai Shodown there are a couple of characters with animal companions: one with a hawk and another with a wolf. The animal companions were at most times considered part of the background, until the character used them as part of a special attack, which might have some kind of supernatural kick to it, like gliding a short distance by grabbing on to the hawk or sending the dog at your foe like a projectile. I wonder if animal companions might be better served this way... most of the time occupying the same square as the PC like a familiar, only emerging to do various (possibly magical) tricks. The only time the companion's stats would come into play is when it left the PC's square for whatever reason, much like a familiar.

Nakoruru and Galford, yup.

I agree. I thing a big issue with the beastmaster is the way it was handled. I think beastmasters should have been split into several subclasses based on the type of beast.

• Bear Trainer
• Falconer
• Horseman
• Houndmaster
• Lion King
• Swarmkeeper

Depending on the subclass chosen, the beast companion would be more or less active and have different special attack and coordinated attacks. A falconer would keep the bird in their space and have spells to allow the bird to pick them up or strike forward for an hit and return attack.

A houndmaster would keep their dog, wold, or other dog-sized beast in a theirs or a nearby space providing another attack and only rush out when ordered for a takedown like Galford does.

A bear trainer would have their bear be almost completely independent and be built to be tougher but have no coordination attacks.

A horseman would have their horse almost purely be a mount and would be mostly be upgrading the ranger.

 

[FrozenNorth]

The fighter has no way to assist outside of combat without GM fiat. I mean, really your example is the fighter declaring he'll have a drinking contest? How about this, the dwarf who wants nothing to do with the party because they despise the Paladin and the Cleric says "No! Get out of my face." Now what does the fighter do? Insist?

Unless the Bard speaks Dwarvish or has Comprehend Languages as a spell known, he might be just as useless as the Fighter in that situation. The Dwarf Ranger would be the principal interlocutor in that case, even if he has an 8 Charisma.