Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[TheSword]

And without magic items the fighter has a 21 AC at best versus a +18 to hit, and their highest save is a also a +11, only their's is Con, which is going to half damage anyways most of the time.

This is the problem with this kind of white room theorizing, because 20th level characters do have a careers worth of magic items which for a fighter is likely to include a magic sword, magic armour and magic shield if needed.

Shield mastery, Resilient, Indomitable all improve saves with very little cost.

 

[CapnZapp]

And this is a separate D&D problem - that the hit point rules mean that the fighters aren't waving around sharpened weighted pieces of metal so much as boffer swords. A realistic and skilled human should be able to dispatch an unarmoured ogre in a single solid hit to the throat or under the rib cage to the heart. In 5e an ogre has 59 hit points. A storm giant is CR 13 and has 230 - but being humanoids one shot to the foemeral artery should be lethal. Which means a level 20 fighter can't match a real world expert swordsman in terms of lethality.

As for the red dragon or lich, both would have to be exceptionally stupid to let the fighter get close. The dragon can fly and breathe fire. If they land to get within reach of the fighter and then lose then they deserve a Darwin Award, and the fighter doesn't really have extra ways to close on the dragon than they had at lower level.

So they can't actually do what you claim.

Not sure what windmills you are jousting here.

There's nothing remotely realistic about D&D combat. On the other hand, playability is much higher than "real life the game".

If you can't catch a dragon when you're level 20 you're doing something wrong.

Let's not derail the discussion.

 

[FrogReaver]

So many assumptions here. Not least that there is space for a gargantuan dragon.

The dragon with its +14 attack bonus is barely denting the magic full plate and magic shield fighter with the duelist feat, shield master and defense fighting style. It’s fire breath barely grazes the fighter because of indomitable, resilient and shield master.

Meanwhile the fighters attack bonus and 8 attacks in a round when surging is making short work of the dragons meager 19 AC.

Alternatively 44 damage in a round is not difficult for a GWM fighter when critting once or twice a round. Throw in the mage slayer feat to negate warcaster and all of a sudden there is medium sized wizard standing in front of you taking attacks of opportunity when it tries to cast misty step to flee.

I’m not saying wizards aren't good but frankly the suggestion that the best thing a wizard can do in a day is attempt to beat a fighter at it’s own game is a bit silly. Red dragons are objectively less tough and deal less damage than a 20th level fighter so it just isn’t the case to say wizards out-fight a fighter.

Shapechange is a last resort for a wizard out of spells not a first strike because what sane wizard gives up the flexibility of casting to become a sack of meat and hp with the ability to belch a warm spray at something that is probably resistant to fire.

Concentration and reducing slots above 5th level was a game changer. We’re not playing 3e anymore.

I noticed you jump from magic shield to GWM.... tell tell sign of biased analysis.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

So many assumptions here.

Sorry, but this seems like a weird thing to say when, a few lines after, you say:

the magic full plate and magic shield fighter with the duelist feat, shield master and defense fighting style.

resilient and shield master.

GWM fighter when critting once or twice a round.

Throw in the mage slayer feat

belch a warm spray at something that is probably resistant to fire.

By itself, these are also a whole lot of presumption. There's no garantee that the fighter will have those magic items, the game does not take in consideration that the group will indeed find said magic items. On the other hand, the wizard is sure to be able to cast polymorph (if he desires); no need to ask the DM. Same with the feats: you build has a bunch of them, but they are also an optional rule. The fighter should be able to do what you say it can do with its base, not with a full build and optimal rules and hypothetical magic items, only to come ahead against a wizard who what? Spent 1 slot?

Not to say that fighter can get an high defense or deal a whole lot of damage, but I dont think people are arguing that the fighter should do even MOAR! damage.

 

[Asisreo]

The reason I challenge the notion that a fighter must have equal options to a spellcaster through class features is because it always, always comes down to exactly what this thread is coming up with.

Having OOC features don't matter. They won't. At best, it sours a level-up and at worst, it makes the level-up seem like something to not look forward to. For instance, the Berserker Barbarian's ability "Intimidating Presence" is literally an OOC skill. Any commoner or low CR but important NPC like nobles can be easily frightened even at a CHA 8 since you'll get it at a minimum DC 11 and you can repeat the save as many times as you want OOC, using it silently. But nobody is going head-over-heels about it because it isn't enough. The frightened condition is amazing OOC since it lets your allies sneak past someone, bluff someone, or otherwise impose disadvantage on certain contests with someone. But it isn't a spellcaster's breadth, so it doesn't count.

Adding a feature that gives you minions doesn't work, because a spellcaster can do the same thing without wasting any level-up feature. They just need the gold and the willpower to do it. Now, that keep and followers that was supposed to be unique to you is just granted to the wizard as well.

The only thing that would rival a spellcaster's "breadth of options" would be to just make all characters spellcasters. Even if they're "mundane," they'll have their artes which will have to be balanced alongside spellcasting which means they'll have to do fantastical things like teleport, raise dead, summon an army, or grant wishes. Which is already stretching the word mundane so far it's almost as long as pretzel dough. Even then, making a whole new system just for it to be magical-not-magical is a waste of time when you can just make all characters spellcasters.

 

[TheSword]

I noticed you jump from magic shield to GWM.... tell tell sign of biased analysis.

I did note in my post that was an alternative not an addition.

 

[TheSword]

Sorry, but this seems like a weird thing to say when, a few lines after, you say:







By itself, these are also a whole lot of presumption. There's no garantee that the fighter will have those magic items, the game does not take in consideration that the group will indeed find said magic items. On the other hand, the wizard is sure to be able to cast polymorph (if he desires); no need to ask the DM. Same with the feats: you build has a bunch of them, but they are also an optional rule. The fighter should be able to do what you say it can do with its base, not with a full build and optimal rules and hypothetical magic items, only to come ahead against a wizard who what? Spent 1 slot?

Not to say that fighter can get an high defense or deal a whole lot of damage, but I dont think people are arguing that the fighter should do even MOAR! damage.

True, but there is an assumption that the wizard has chosen Shapechange to supposedly out-fight the fighter. So why not assume the fighter is tooled with some fairly reasonable magic items and feats.

Feats may be an optional rule, but they are used in the vast majority of games. They are the optional rule that most people forget is optional - on the grounds that there are six pages of them.

If by 20th level your fighter hasn’t got a decent magic weapon and magic armour you’re playing with a very stingy DM. In my experience this is a moot point in a real game.

 

[Asisreo]

This is the problem with this kind of white room theorizing, because 20th level characters do have a careers worth of magic items which for a fighter is likely to include a magic sword, magic armour and magic shield if needed.

Shield mastery, Resilient, Indomitable all improve saves with very little cost.

An average adventuring party should have roughly 100 magic items over their career, that is correct.

Jeremy Crawford said combat isn't balanced around magic items. Where people get that a fighter shouldn't expect to find magic items are just plain and simple wrong and shows they haven't read the rules about magic item distribution.

 

[FrogReaver]

This is the problem with this kind of white room theorizing, because 20th level characters do have a careers worth of magic items which for a fighter is likely to include a magic sword, magic armour and magic shield if needed.

Shield mastery, Resilient, Indomitable all improve saves with very little cost.

the challengewas clearly set up for a no magic items example. Why insist on adding magic items unless he’s right and those are needed to have any chance in that encounter? And if so doesn’t they kind ofprove the point?

 

[Asisreo]

the challengewas clearly set up for a no magic items example. Why insist on adding magic items unless he’s right and those are needed to have any chance in that encounter? And if so doesn’t they kind ofprove the point?

His point, as I understand it, is that fighters not having magic items is an artifact of the DM not adjudicating them at the same rate the DMG suggests they are distributed. It would be like never introducing equipment past your starting equipment. Entirely up to the DM, but it's there for a reason.

Moreso, you literally have a guide to how many magic items are expected from an adventuring party in both the DMG and in XGtE.