Level Up (A5E) Changes to race (species?)

[Haldrik]

Okay, I'm getting a better picture of your position, and I think I see where @Micah Sweet is coming from in response.

I'm not a fan of making all D&D racial traits learned, or cultural traits. I don't think it's a wrong position to take, heck, I just spitballed above about elven environmental adaptation as being a learned trait, at least in regards to specific environments . . . but I do think that there are some racial traits that flow better if thought of as inherited, or species traits.

But it's all a matter of perspective and preference. Elves, dwarves, orcs and all the rest are, of course, not real species but fictional creations based on mythic and literary tropes. They are a way to explore humanity through stereotypes, a way to focus your character concept. So, to view the fantasy races as NOT being distinct biological species . . . that's okay, it's just not my preference.

Sure, you can cast a spell to shapechange or gain darkvision temporarily, and it's not a stretch to say that powerful magic can make those changes permanent. In old-school D&D, there was even a high-level spell called permanence that did just that. So for a group of elves to have a cultural practice of adapting their bodies via magic to their environment . . . yeah, that can work.

Part of the challenge is that fantasy isn't based on scientific understanding, but mythic tropes. The word species is a scientific word and sounds off to some of us when describing fantasy races. And why should fantasy races be limited to our current understanding (or even misunderstanding) of the science of biology and evolution, and of culture and ethnicity? But, we view the game through our modern lens, and basic ideas about species, evolution, culture, and ethnicity play into that. That's why many of us come into this discussion from an almost science fictional perspective. Positing, "What if elves were a biological species on a world a lot like our Earth . . . what would they be like?"

Heh. But if hard science fiction, elves are a "sufficiently" magical technological society, that can genetically-engineer and nano-shift any species at will.

Worth mentioning is inventing new species, like owlbear and tiefling.

 

[Kinematics]

Several concerns are going on at the same time.

There are so many problems with basically everything you said, but I don't want to start up a flame war over this. I'll just say that you can build a game where things work the way you describe, but that game is not standard D&D.

There are things which are absolutely 'nature', and things which are absolutely 'nurture', and a few things where there's a little uncertainty, but picking one for the sake of the game design is not too difficult. Saying that everything is nurture is just flat out wrong.

 

[Undrave]

Yep. Honestly, I'd be fine with fewer Wizard and Cleric subclasses in teh PHB and more races.

They really didn't need to make EIGHT separate subclasses for each schoolof magic, just one 'school specialist' where you pick your favorite school would have been enough. Sheesh.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They really didn't need to make EIGHT separate subclasses for each schoolof magic, just one 'school specialist' where you pick your favorite school would have been enough. Sheesh.

I've never understood why people have issues with too many subclasses. You only get to choose one, so what does it matter how many there are? Besides, wizards have taken it on the chin with new options exactly because they got so many in the PH. And that's a shame, because the class concept leads to a lit of variety. Same with cleric. As many domains as they did include, there were still plenty of gaps.

 

[Undrave]

I've never understood why people have issues with too many subclasses. You only get to choose one, so what does it matter how many there are? Besides, wizards have taken it on the chin with new options exactly because they got so many in the PH. And that's a shame, because the class concept leads to a lit of variety. Same with cleric. As many domains as they did include, there were still plenty of gaps.

The big issue is that they wasted a ton of room in the book for a ton of redundant text. Those school subclasses have a ton of overlap that didn't need to be its own thing. They could have had the Bladesinger as a core subclass, for exemple. Or give us interestng combinations instead of going for the most boring concepts possible.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The big issue is that they wasted a ton of room in the book for a ton of redundant text. Those school subclasses have a ton of overlap that didn't need to be its own thing. They could have had the Bladesinger as a core subclass, for exemple. Or give us interestng combinations instead of going for the most boring concepts possible.

I see your point, but I suspect the PH was always going to have the most boring options possible. They need to provide a baseline, after all. I just wish they had moved a little more quickly on additional choices.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

They really didn't need to make EIGHT separate subclasses for each schoolof magic, just one 'school specialist' where you pick your favorite school would have been enough. Sheesh.

Well, certainly the could have built a subclass structured like the Totem Barbarian, and saved space, and had a more interesting thing. Level2 you pick School Specialist, and get the scribing stuff for 1 school of your choice, and then a different feature determined by what school you picked.
All redundant text removed.

I've never understood why people have issues with too many subclasses. You only get to choose one, so what does it matter how many there are? Besides, wizards have taken it on the chin with new options exactly because they got so many in the PH. And that's a shame, because the class concept leads to a lit of variety. Same with cleric. As many domains as they did include, there were still plenty of gaps.

I love mores options, I’d just rather have Orcs and Goblinoids in the PHB than have all the schools and domains in the PHB.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, certainly the could have built a subclass structured like the Totem Barbarian, and saved space, and had a more interesting thing. Level2 you pick School Specialist, and get the scribing stuff for 1 school of your choice, and then a different feature determined by what school you picked.
All redundant text removed.


I love mores options, I’d just rather have Orcs and Goblinoids in the PHB than have all the schools and domains in the PHB.

I think what they should do is provide a good mix of base options in the PH, make sure there's room for the popular new races (like orcs and goblins) and come out with more character options shortly thereafter (like within a year of the theoretical 6e's release). The big problem is that we had to wait so long for more options, to the point where they're still so hesitant to publish something not everyone will like that we get milquetoast, bland player material that meets their 70% most of the time.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think what they should do is provide a good mix of base options in the PH, make sure there's room for the popular new races (like orcs and goblins) and come out with more character options shortly thereafter (like within a year of the theoretical 6e's release). The big problem is that we had to wait so long for more options, to the point where they're still so hesitant to publish something not everyone will like that we get milquetoast, bland player material that meets their 70% most of the time.

What options have they put out that have been bland?

 

[Undrave]

How about this compromise:

Instead of an ASI, each race has two stats where the maximum is 22 instead of 20. This means that it's only impact will be at the highest level of play where the impact will be mitigated, but you still get that all too important feel of 'natural strengths' that some people like.