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D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

Sacrosanct

Legend
Hex once per day and with concentration (something that relies on your CON?) is about the best you can do... it's only because Hex is good. And what did you sacrifice to get that feat exactly?

Nothing. I was a variant human so I got it for free. Even if I wasn't, it would be the same thing a character would sacrifice to get GWM or PAM--a feat slot

Also, it wasn't just the hex spell with that feat. You also get two cantrips, one of which could be eldritch blast, which also works wonderfully with the mobility of the monk (see my comment above about kiting a roper all by myself).

And while hex is only once per long rest, when you're attacking 3-4 times per round, that's an extra 3-4d6 per round*. I haven't done the math, but I'm sure that is a significant combat DPR boost when comparing to other classes.

*assuming you're saving Hex for the big baddie that wouldn't die in just one or two rounds.
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
To those saying "jack of all trades, master of none", this is... both not entirely true, and also not a bad thing?

First the monk is a master of shutting down someone with stunning fist, because they can try several times in a round. It's brutal. They have the mobility to make it happen too. So definitely not master of none.

Second, the "jack of all trades" allows the monk to participate in a lot of things. Need to back up the ranger or rogue on a scouting mission*? Monk can help. Need fighting? Monk can help. Need roleplaying? Well that is where the monk's role in the world as a "wise figure" helps - they aren't a paladin, but with a good roleplayer should be able to leverage that to their advantage. Certainly much more trustworthy than a grubby sell sword or dodgy spellcaster.

* a shadow monk can certainly be a master of scouting.

A monk is able to enhance the capacities of a party in several roles. Have a well balanced party (say the classic fighter rogue cleric mage) and are adding a 5th member? The monk will bring a lot to the table. Have a small party where one member has to do "double duty"? A monk will do great.

If you enjoy being daring, and if you enjoy participating a lot in what is going on but don't feel the need to be the star all the time, the monk could be a great class for you.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I felt it necessary to combine two disparate threads in a funny way.

I present to you Dirty Ho (which is not what it sounds like at all), a 1979 cheesy Kung Fu comedy, which includes a monk fighting in a wheelchair. The monk, and the wheelchair, are plenty effective in combat. In a cheesy 1970s Kung Fu comedy sort of way.

 

Chaosmancer

Legend
The thing is, the Monk doesn't HAVE the option to invest more into Damage. It has no GWM feat or PAM feat, and barely any magic item support. There's nowhere to go with your Monk's damage.

Okay, but is it the fault of the monk that they received little to no support in feats and magic items (two "optional" sets of rules that are completely under DM control?)

And, I'd argue that they get the major benefit of PAM (a free bonus action attack with mod) at level 1.

But if the issue is "there are no feats or magic items designed to make this class better" (By the way makes can use shortswords, so they also have access to just about every magic sword a fighter does) then that can be fixed by designing new feats and magic items. Like Crusher, which is some additional very nice control for a monk character.



That Greatsword Fighter only needs to invest in STR to have that AC... The same stat he's using to attack with. Then his second highest stat is probably gonna be CON. Couple that CON with the d10 Hit Die AND the Second Wind feature and the Fighter has a signficantly greater pool of HP to soak up damage with. And then that Fighter can pick whatever he wants as a third stat! Want to be INT focus? CHA focus? WIS focus? Pick whatever... The Monk is railroaded into DEX and WIS and probably will want CON in third place otherwise, to quote someone up there, they fall off a cliff.

Sure, Monks need wisdom. But, if they invest in Dexteritity, that is also the same stat they use to attack with and is boosting their AC. In fact, with a 16/16 start, A monk only investing in dexterity can reach AC 18. Only investing in their attack stat. And there is nothing wrong with Focusing Dex and Wisdom, those are two of the best stats in the game. Pigeon-holed? Sure, but it is a strong place to be regardless.

Yes, they have less Hp than the fighter. Not going to deny that. But investing in their damage is also investing in their AC. And your point wasn't "they have low hp" it was that they cannot match the at-will out-put of a fighter... But they can.

Maybe @Helldritch is right, and it is only the perception that they are weak if they can't use their bonus abilities, but that perception is not reality.



The fighter offers more build option, despite not being as flexible at the table, than the Monk, and its subclasses are generally more solid too (some of them are awfully boring though).

The Monk does have the advantage of better saves than the Fighter, but the Fighter gets more Feat with which to mitigate any potential weakness (let's all be honest, you only need 3 good saves, the other three are basically ribbon).

I feel like the Monk feels too much like a Warlock and not enough like an Arcane Trickster or an Eldritch Knight. Their at-will core should be stronger than what it is now.

The Ki options are generally good, but if you take a subclass that gives you more options to spend on (but no extra ressource to spend on them), it becomes incredibly HARD to manage your points effectively.

And for a class that's presented as being all about punching stuff and using your body as a deadly weapon, I feel like it's got a very narrow range of optimal applicaton and a very high skill floor that feels at odd with the fluff.


I'm not sure if the Fighter really offers more build options, but I think you are missing a point with the Monk.

Most of their subclasses don't spend more Ki, they instead empower the Monk's Flurry of Blows (open hand and drunken master specifically). Shadow does spend Ki, but does so outside of combat generally for very powerful effects.

But the point I keep trying to make is that the monk without Ki, before level 11, is not falling behind, unless you are dealing with a -5/+10 feat.

Don't forget that at 8th level, the greatsword fighter got his third ASI. Since he's not using feats (otherwise he'd grab GWM), he already maxed out his Str at 6th level, so ASI #3 went into Con. The sort of threat the fighter can stand against, the monk is using his ki and movement and bonus action to keep pulling away from, lest he die. Which is fine from one perspective; the monk can do that to keep up, and he can use the ki other ways in different fights.

But the big thing here is that the defense of the monk comes down to, "Monks are fine through Tier 2, if you don't use feats or magic items". That, to me, sure looks like an admission that "Monks lag a bit in Tier 2, unless you're fighting single-BBEGs to stunlock."

Most of the "without magic items" discussions are because the fighter is being given +1 Plate Mail and +1 Shields, or sometimes +2 on each. Meanwhile the monk is given nothing.

But, Bracers of Defense are a Shield for Monks, they can wear rings and cloaks of protection. They have magic items that increase their AC too. But, because the designers wanted +3 Plate Mail, but didn't want to stack higher than +3 Armor and +3 Shield, they didn't design +3 Rings of Protection.

Frankly, I'd remove the Attunement requirement for Bracers of Defense and make them uncommon (they are literally just a shield for people who can't use shields) and design some new items that are monk specific.

But, even with current magic items, a Monk with a Defender Shortsword, Bracers of Defense, A Ring of Protection and a Cloak of Protection, with 20/16 Dex/Wis can have 25 AC every single round. Very similiar to the Fighter with +3 Platemail and +3 Shield (26)

People just want the monk to never have any equipment at all, for whatever reason.

So this is where we have to look at the notion that “not all levels are created equal”.

your point is true at 1st level, but 1st level is intentionally designed to be moved through quickly, and many games start at higher levels.

Then from levels 2-7 the monk has lower AC. This is the “sweet spot” of gaming, the vast majority of games and tables are playing in this level range.

then at 8th level the monk equalizes (assuming specific stat bumps...and the fighter is not taking feats that boost AC...which is generally a reasonable if not rigid assumption). However for many campaigns this is epilogue time...the game is starting to wind down.

So for the vast majority of “screen time” at the table, the monk has worse AC.

Huh?

What kind of Rogue is getting better than 16 AC by level 2? Are all of your fighters suddenly in plate-mail before level 4?

This seems to be a very strong claim over a very broad range with no supporting facts.


Edit: Seems this is addressed.

You mention healing though, which brings me to another point. Much like the Rogue, the Monk should rarely be in a situation where they can be hit. Both Open Hand and Drunken Master give you ways to stay mobile when using Flurry of Blows, Shadow has their teleportation, ect.

In fact, I think Open Hand really highlights the issue with ignoring subclasses. They have the ability to use their Flurry of Blows for more damage, and control, and it allows them to freely disengage with the enemy. Then, they get the only monk healing ability, covering the other issue you see.

Yes they do, and a really good one. Since you're talking feats, my aforementioned shadow monk? I took the magic initiate feat and got hex. Hex with a monk is crazy good, for obvious reasons.

Yes, the only problem with using hex or hunters mark (I thought about getting it via the Fey-Touched feat before) is the heavy bonus action requirement, but if you need to dish out the damage, adding a single d6 to all four attacks is huge
 

Undrave

Legend
I would still argue from my OP that the monks defensive lack isn’t just pure AC, it’s also hp recovery. The lack is class based healing (except from the 6th level open hand) does reduce the monk a good bit as well.

Perhaps the intention then Is the Monks ki dodge is meant to serve as that per encounter damage mitigation. I would argue it’s a poor substitute, mainly because its unreliable (you don’t know if you’ll get attacked vs you know when you need healing) and because it consumes your bonus action, which denies you offense or other abilities.

I think then a small tweak that could probably fix the issue is to allow patient defense to also be triggered as a “reaction to an attack roll”. That eliminates the two issues, which I think would be enough to give the monk the needed defense

Maybe not everything the Monk does needed to use Ki. They could have used a stance system where one stance is basically like equipping a shield, and another gives them mobile, etc. The reliance on Ki and Bonus Action just restrains the Monk too much.

Nothing. I was a variant human so I got it for free. Even if I wasn't, it would be the same thing a character would sacrifice to get GWM or PAM--a feat slot

True, but a Fighter doesn't sacrifice AC for that feat if he's using heavy armor, and he doesn't have a critical class feature (Stunning Strike) that relies on a secondary ability score being high to work better.

First the monk is a master of shutting down someone with stunning fist, because they can try several times in a round. It's brutal. They have the mobility to make it happen too. So definitely not master of none.

I still think Stunning Strike is overrated in the balancing aspect of the class. Putting aside that you get it much later than other role defining features, I think it's not THAT great. Here's what I fought as a Monk: minions that would die from one turn or two of attacks, creatures with Legendary Resistances, creatures I DO NOT want to be in melee with, a friggin' Greater Invisibilty caster and some knights. The Knights were the only one where Stunning Strike had any impact, and they still had lots of CON and took multiple attempts to stun.

In one fight I had to waste two of my 6 Ki points to cast Silence, which was a cool thing, but then I was left plinking away with a Short Bow until I could get into position to attack the biggest threat and try (and fail) to stun it twice in the same turn. Then I asked for a short rest after the Paladin took care of it.

If you blow all your Ki in one turn you're a sitting duck, your DPS goes down the crapper and that guy is gonna be back to normal after a turn so you better hope your allies are ready to wail on him.

Stunning Strike is a gimmick and you can't have a class rely on a lone, 5th level, gimmick.
 

Undrave

Legend
But if the issue is "there are no feats or magic items designed to make this class better" (By the way makes can use shortswords, so they also have access to just about every magic sword a fighter does) then that can be fixed by designing new feats and magic items. Like Crusher, which is some additional very nice control for a monk character.

Oh yeah Crusher is really REALLY nice and I really want it on my Monk. It better make it to the book AND not get nerfed...

In Treatmonk's defence, that feat didn't exist when he made his video :p
 

Undrave

Legend
Shadow has their teleportation

The Teleportation grants you advantage on all your attacks before the end of the turn, I get the feeling it was designed to APPROACH targets, not to get out of dodge... I've been using it to escape as well and maybe I should try the other way around and see how it goes?
 

Stalker0

Legend
In fact, I think Open Hand really highlights the issue with ignoring subclasses.

I also think subclasses was part of what started the “monk sucks” train.

the way of 4 elements monk is a bad subclass, and when the popularity of The Last Airbender, I bet a lot of people tried a monk wanting to play a Bender. I know that was my partys first exposure, and it went badly.

I do think the other subclasses are better, but I think that subclass left a bad taste in peoples mouths as to what the monk could (and couldn’t) do.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I also think subclasses was part of what started the “monk sucks” train.

the way of 4 elements monk is a bad subclass, and when the popularity of The Last Airbender, I bet a lot of people tried a monk wanting to play a Bender. I know that was my partys first exposure, and it went badly.

I do think the other subclasses are better, but I think that subclass left a bad taste in peoples mouths as to what the monk could (and couldn’t) do.

I've seen Open hand and drunken master in play at low levels, they seem to do ok (key is for the DM to not skimp on allowing short rests).

I've never seen 4 elements in play and would never recommend to a new player (or anyone for that matter).

I mean seriously, you start with 1. a glorified prestidigitation and 2. a first level spell (or effect) that tends to be really expensive.

At higher levels it's worse. Woo I can cast fireball for over 1/3 my ki reserve 6 levels after the mage already could (with likely a worse save DC)! But wait at 17th level, I can cast stoneskin for just under 1/3 of my ki reserves - 10 levels after a mage could and at a level where it's almost certainly not going to mean much (Compare to an open hand monk, who for 2 less Ki can do 10d10 to a creature - if they fail their save otherwise to 0). Yuck.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I've seen Open hand and drunken master in play at low levels, they seem to do ok (key is for the DM to not skimp on allowing short rests).

I've never seen 4 elements in play and would never recommend to a new player (or anyone for that matter).

I mean seriously, you start with 1. a glorified prestidigitation and 2. a first level spell (or effect) that tends to be really expensive.

At higher levels it's worse. Woo I can cast fireball for over 1/3 my ki reserve 6 levels after the mage already could (with likely a worse save DC)! But wait at 17th level, I can cast stoneskin for just under 1/3 of my ki reserves - 10 levels after a mage could and at a level where it's almost certainly not going to mean much (Compare to an open hand monk, who for 2 less Ki can do 10d10 to a creature - if they fail their save otherwise to 0). Yuck.

giving elemental monk 1 bonus ki and turning spells into bonus actions worked really well with the elemental monk.
 

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