D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[Snarf Zagyg]

We talked about the psychology thing and I want to mention: using your ki to dodge doesn't feel good.

• You don't know if you'll be attacked, nor you don't know what the DM will roll. If the DM rolls a fumble you feel like you wasted your Ki. If the DM decides to attack an easier target, you don't see that as an advantage.

So, one of the issues with the Monk threads is this (I bolded it).

On the one hand, people refuse any suggestion that there are large numbers of people that like the Monk "as-is."

Then, when you suggest that they simply "house-rule" a convenient change to the Monk to improve whatever their issue is, the problem is that they don't houserules, because, um, something about only accounting for RAW.

On the other hand (as the bold notes) it also seems hard to account for the varying play experience because many people are playing with house rules.

 

[Undrave]

So, one of the issues with the Monk threads is this (I bolded it).

On the one hand, people refuse any suggestion that there are large numbers of people that like the Monk "as-is."

Then, when you suggest that they simply "house-rule" a convenient change to the Monk to improve whatever their issue is, the problem is that they don't houserules, because, um, something about only accounting for RAW.

On the other hand (as the bold notes) it also seems hard to account for the varying play experience because many people are playing with house rules.

Because we're complaining about the book?? You can house rule anything, does that mean you should NEVER complain about anything in the game? EVER? And just because you CAN house rule, doesn't mean your DM will go for it, or that you know what a good house rule would be, so you DISCUSS the problem on this DISCUSSION BOARD. Especially since Morrus might buff the Monk in Level-Up, now is a good time to discuss its failings.

Just because people can have fun with the Monk and like it as-is, doesn't mean there isn't room to improve it.

And finally... what house rule am I talking about in the bolded part? If the DM rolls say... a 1 and 3 on their attack with disadvantage against your dodging Monk... did the dodge even matter?!

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And finally... what house rule am I talking about in the bolded part?

Fumbling is a house rule.

Also, I think your caps lock is getting stuck. You should see if it needs to be repaired.

 

[Undrave]

Fumbling is a house rule.

Also, I think your caps lock is getting stuck. You should see if it needs to be repaired.

By 'fumble', I just meant rolling a 1, sorry. We just call it 'fumble' at my table out of habit because it's usually not worth calculating unless your attack bonus is very high.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

By 'fumble', I just meant rolling a 1, sorry. We just call it 'fumble' at my table out of habit because it's usually not worth calculating unless your attack bonus is very high.

That's not it either.

It's not a fumble, but it is an automatic miss.

That's PHB, p. 194. An attack roll of 1 is an automatic miss.

Attack rolls, unlike ability checks and saving throws, have special default rules for 1 and 20.

 

[Undrave]

That's not it either.

It's not a fumble, but it is an automatic miss.

That's PHB, p. 194. An attack roll of 1 is an automatic miss.

Attack rolls, unlike ability checks and saving throws, have special default rules for 1 and 20.

Point is, we just call a '1' a 'fumble' out of habit but we're not tacking any house rules on it.

 

[GlassJaw]

I have no issues with the 5E monk. I agree it's a polarizing class in any edition but overall the 5E incarnation is pretty solid.

That said, I 100% agree that the monk needs a bit more ki at low levels and the Four Elements path is hot garbage.

I've been tinkering with a 1/long rest ability that lets the monk regain some ki but it feels overly complicated. They really just need a couple more points early on. Just easier to redo the ki progression:

1. 0
2. 4
3. 5
4. 6
5. 7
6. 8
7. 9
8. 10
9. 11
10. 12
11. 12
12. 13
13. 14
14. 15
15. 15
16. 16
17. 17
18. 18
19. 19
20. 20

 

[Todd Roybark]

Level 3+ being able to cast pass without trace for party stealth boost of +10 each.... It's at least comparable in power to all the rogue skill bonuses and expertise. (for levels 1-10 which is what this thread is evaluating).

Pass without Trace is a great spell, and being able to cast it off a Short Rest recharge is amazing.
The competition for 2nd level spell slots is fierce, the Shadow Monk just bypasses the spell slot choke point. My cleric of Trickery is jealous

If I had to pick between Pass without Trace or the Inquisitive subclassed Rogue with Expertise in Investigation and Perception, I'm choosing the Rogue. The Rogue finds everything, and those skills can be applied in almost any circumstance.

The Shadow Monk also gets Silence, which is great to muffle the sounds of combat.
All together I think it a fair statement to say a Shadow Monk is better then a Rogue at Stealth.
Maybe not individually better, but one is only as sneaky as their loudest, clumsiest adventuring mate...and the Shadow Monk makes everyone better...substantially better.

 

[FrogReaver]

Tactically, you're better off attacking whenever possible. There's only very few situations where I would see myself using the Dodge action to begin with. Mostly if I don't have anything better to do with my action.

And maybe it is psychological... I used to play card games and if you spend a turn without having your opponent expend any ressources you're in trouble. It gives them one more turn to gather ressources (drawing, searching etc), one more turn to activate effects and one more turn to mount an offensive on you. If you're just standing there like a turtle the opponent is free to do whatever the heck they want.

Also, 5e combat is already pretty short so there's a good chance my allies would just finish the fight and I'll look like I left them out to dry instead of contributing.

Tactically that’s not necessarily true. Dodge lowers the enemies damage output by roughly half (estimated - and obviously you don’t dodge vs enemies that use saving throw abilities)

As long as you are pretty sure a significant portion of the damage will come at you then bonus action dodge typically is a tactically superior choice.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I have no issues with the 5E monk. I agree it's a polarizing class in any edition but overall the 5E incarnation is pretty solid.

That said, I 100% agree that the monk needs a bit more ki at low levels and the Four Elements path is hot garbage.

I think the following points, which have all been stated before, have a fair amount of support:

A. The 5e Monk is a very good implementation for those who like the "D&D Monk." They did a good job. Not perfect- they didn't put it on steroids like some of the classes, but it is a great implementation of the D&D Monk Trope. It "plays right" if you like Monks.

B. Of the subclasses, the Four Elements is easily the weakest monk subclasses (and one of the weakest subclasses in all of 5e, IMO). The way that the 4E monk's "spellcasting" features (Disciple of the Elements) is powered off Ki, as are the melee elements ... doesn't work. At all.

C. The one recurrent problem for Monk it that the Monk and the Warlock are the two most short-rest dependent classes; I think a decent argument can be made that Monk is the most short-rest dependent. As such, if your DM is not comfortable with short rests, and you are not getting sufficient short rests, then the class is going to feel very underpowered. While JC has said there is no limit, the rule of thumb is that you should be getting two short rests per adventuring day. So, if you have a short rest problem, then simply multiply the Ki points by three (two short rests + long rest) and use them as a long rest resource. .....If that is still insufficient, multiply by four as a long rest resource- and if that is insufficient, you have bigger issues playing that the amount of ki.

D. Finally, a big issue is that many people who play the Monk don't enjoy it because it doesn't play in the way they want. Which is fine! There are many classes that I do not play because they are unsuited for me. Beastmasters (pets suck). Druids (hippies stink of patchouli). Bards (should be killed and not heard). Not every class will appeal to everyone.

Monks are similar to a leatherman multi-tool. Sure, you probably want the specific tool for a job; but sometimes, you just want to carry a single tool that might not be the best at any thing, but can be pretty good at a bunch of things.

....and, to paraphrase the immortal Ricky Bobby, "Monks are all about speed. Hot, nasty, bad azz speed."