D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[FrogReaver]

Yeah for one fight that's fine, but if after that fight where you surprise the opponent, you get into a second fight because they heard the sound of battle? And not just your DPR, but your stuns and your defence...it's an hard act to juggle.

Both monks in that scenario are in the same boat.

 

[Undrave]

Both monks in that scenario are in the same boat.

Yes. It's why I find the Monk frustrating. There's not enough room for error. Mismanaging your Ki is too easy for too much impact.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I disagree with this. I will state up front that I have not seen 4Element monk in play, but my read of the class is the spellcasting is akin to a warlock's spellcasting: limited, and short rest based.

The spells are 'priced' in Ki to essentially emulate having one spell slot per short rest.
Even with no Ki points a Monk is still an Extra Attack class with a reliable Attack/for bonus action mechanism.

2 Ki points for a Hold Person spell seems a good price to me. A 10th level Monk has 10 Ki points and can spend 4 Ki points to cast Hold Person at a 4th level effective level (can target 3 people).

Spell slots are tight, and most DMs do not give nearly enough scrolls, or allow Mana potions.
A 4E monk essentially has a spell recovery feature that is better then Arcane Recovery.

I'm not going to argue against a preference, especially one that likes Monks.

...that said, I can tell you that the 4E Monk reads great, but (IME) it plays terribly. The subclass is fundamentally flawed.

Normally, when you get a spellcasting subclass based off a non-spellcasting class (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight), they get spells at a set rate (the "1/3 caster" rate); this spell progression is a separate, flexible resource. Those classes get to learn a larger number of spells from an even larger universe of spells, and casting them does not take any of their class resource.

The 4E Monk, on the other hand, has exceptionally limited "spellcasting," and in order to use the spellcasting, they have to deplete the single resource that makes them more effective at everything else.

It's a terrible decision to make. And it's even worse as the ki costs for certain spells increases.

I love Monks, but I could never in good conscience recommend this class without houseruling.

 

[Todd Roybark]

Monks can’t upcast their spells. Hold person also costs 3 ki not 2.

Sorry I did misquote the price. The point is still valid..5 Ki points then.

as to upcasting, per the PHB, pg80:
Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as burning hands does. The spell's level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, ifyou are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast burning hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline's base cost of 2 ki points plus 1). The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.

 

[Mort]

Monks can’t upcast their spells. Hold person also costs 3 ki not 2.

4 elements monks can; they expend 1 ki point to upcast 1 level (so 2 ki points upcasts 2 levels). But there's a cap, a 4 elements monk can only expend up to 3 ki per spell until 8th level - so couldn't upcast hold person until 9th level and then only by 1 ki.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes. It's why I find the Monk frustrating. There's not enough room for error. Mismanaging your Ki is too easy for too much impact.

But your starting from the point that ki is needed.

A no ki monk and a fighter that has expended his short rest abilities are nearly identical. The monk is essentially a TWF with slightly less hp and maybe 1 less ac. The monk gets a few goodies in exChange for the lost hp and ac (with ac eventually catching up). Speed, deflect missles, evasion, built in magic weapon, minimal dependency on gear (freeing up gold for other Purposes).

I really don’t get the whole concept that the monk sucks worse than a fighter without his resources. Not through level 10 anyway.

 

[Mort]

Sorry I did misquote the price. The point is still valid..5 Ki points then.

as to upcasting, per the PHB, pg80:
Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as burning hands does. The spell's level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, ifyou are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast burning hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline's base cost of 2 ki points plus 1). The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.

Nope, 4 ki max (until 13th level) so can upcast to 3rd level only (1 additional target - a wizard fwiw could do 4 targets)

 

[FrogReaver]

Sorry I did misquote the price. The point is still valid..5 Ki points then.

as to upcasting, per the PHB, pg80:
Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as burning hands does. The spell's level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, ifyou are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast burning hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline's base cost of 2 ki points plus 1). The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.

I never realized that. Thanks.

 

[Mort]

But your starting from the point that ki is needed.

A no ki monk and a fighter that has expended his short rest abilities are nearly identical. The monk is essentially a TWF with slightly less hp and maybe 1 less ac. The monk gets a few goodies in exChange for the lost hp and ac (with ac eventually catching up). Speed, deflect missles, evasion, built in magic weapon, minimal dependency on gear (freeing up gold for other Purposes).

I really don’t get the whole concept that the monk sucks worse than a fighter without his resources. Not through level 10 anyway.

This is mostly true. The monk lags at 11th level+ because their whole shtick is based off reskinned 2 weapon fighting and 2 weapon fighting drops off at 11+ for anyone using it (well martial classes haven't done the analysis on rogues).

 

[Todd Roybark]

The 4E Monk, on the other hand, has exceptionally limited "spellcasting," and in order to use the spellcasting, they have to deplete the single resource that makes them more effective at everything else.

It doesn't have casting though, it has a total of 5 powers it can purchase uses of with Ki points.
The same argument regarding spending Ki points to fuel a power would also apply to a Kensei's Sharpen the Blade, or Deft Strike abilities ..yet those powers are very useful.

Do you consider the Kensei powers to be traps as well?