D&D 5E My Response to the "Monk Sucks" thread

[Chaosmancer]

Sorry for the massive post, I was busy yesterday and catching up was hard.

Stunning Strike is a gimmick and you can't have a class rely on a lone, 5th level, gimmick.

Sure, I think Stunning Strike is "fine" but I have never once argued it is the key defining aspect of the monk. It is a nice ability, nothing more.

Oh yeah Crusher is really REALLY nice and I really want it on my Monk. It better make it to the book AND not get nerfed...

In Treatmonk's defence, that feat didn't exist when he made his video

Oh, I know, but I think it also makes a good point though.

The Crusher and Slasher feats are going to really shift how monks are seen, I think. The only other classes that can do both slashing and bludgeoning damage effectively are dual-wielders or PAM, meaning there is an extra feat involved.

But, Monks will be able to use them to (at-will with bonus action punch) reduce an enemies speed by 10, and push them back 5, allowing for a free disengage. That is going to be a lot of extra control on the monk.

And, it came from designing a feat they could use. Most items and feats are designed for either fighters or wizards, very few feats or magic items exist that are best on Druids or Monks, so creating options that let them shine brighter will close up that gap.

Monk baseline, resource-free damage, is worse than an EB+AB warlock who uses an 8 hour buff spell (where they can recharge in an hour) at level
5+. 2d10+8+2d6 (26) > 2d8+1d6+12(24.5)

The monk gets an additional 7.5/level/rest damage that has to hit (37.5 at 5) which stacks with baseline, while the warlock gets 2x8d6 aoe (28x2 fireball, or equivalent 3rd level spell) which does not.

The 3 free invocations and cha-SAD and range and ability to sacrifice damage (slots) for utility spells of the warlock beat monk utility two ways from sunday.

Also losing to warlock in utility and at-will damage

Sword and Board Fighter -> 21
Greatsword Fighter with no Feat -> 24
Totem Barbarian with no Feat -> 25
Paladins (same damage as Fighter, has weaker utility spells)
Rogues -> 18


So, this isn't exactly a startling revelation, EB+AB+Hex is high damage, the only builds that get close with "at-will" damage are Rangers using Hunter's Mark, PAM fighters (25.5) and Zealot Barbarians.

It costs the equivalent of 15 can-misss damage at level 5 for 1 round. And as many DMs play dodge as visible, it just redirects damage to your allies.

It costs both the ki and your bonus action attack.

I guess it depends on what you want from the Dodge action. Do you want to take no damage, or do you want to waste the enemies attack. If you want to take no damage, them attacking an ally is a similiar result.

But, if you feel the DM ignoring you while you dodge is a problem, that seems to be on the DM.

If you compare Hypnotic Pattern to stun-spam on multiple enemies, pattern comes out ahead.

Basically unless you are fighting a legendary resistance critter does stun-spam start looking great in the 1-10 range. And gere you are just throwing your damage into the hope of soaking a 1 or 2 legendary resists. The foe has to be legendary, not have an auto-win con save, but not be so tough that the party is going to only fight it today (otherwise, daily casters have more slots and higher DCs).

Again, sure, spells are great. Monks aren't spellcasters though, and there is a fundamental difference in the intent of Stunning Strike vs a save spell like Hypnotic Pattern.

Hypnotic Pattern is being used to take some group of enemies out of the fight, even if half the enemies succeed in their saves, the spell is a success. It is also a 3rd level daily ability.

The Monk's Stunning strike barrage (spending multiple ki to get one target to fail) is meant to take a single enemy out of the fight, and is recoverable on a short rest. And, it might come to pass that they only need to spend 1 ki to pull it off, but if the enemy succeeds once, they still have to succeed at least two more times. That is a big difference.

Sure.

But let us take the weakest of BM - a twf BM. At 6 she does 3d8+12 to the monk's 2d8+1d6+12 at-will.

The BM has 4d8 maneurver dice, the monk 6 ki. The BM can turn thise dice into a 2d8+4 riposte, a miss into a 1d8+4 hit, a crit into a +2d8 damage and save, or just a 1d8 damage and save.

Save DCs are higher in the BM (based off primary attack stat). BM AC is higher at 1-10 (either heavy armor, or medium+dex, or even light).

BM baseline action surge and second wind is big (2d8+8 swing damage, 2/3 of a level 6s ki damage). BM dice are damage and status effects, and she has 4 of them.

And BM has xbe/ss and pam/gwm builds that are considered much stronger than the TWF build.

Monk subclasses are addicted to burning Ki, so they provide breadth not depth. Open hand is an exception, but even there you have to ki-flurry to impose easy to defeat saving throw conditions.

Interesting you chose level 6, a spot where the fighter gains an extra feat so you could have the dual-wielding feat. Back level 5 your fighters damage was 3d6+12 (22.5) or 3d8+9 (21.5) both of which were lower than the monks (24.5), heck, even the difference you list is pretty small the BM is only doing 25.5, a single point better.

I have no idea how you think the Fighter's AC is better across the board. Light Armor with the Feat is 17, same as the Monk. Medium Armor is likely a Breastplate, so also 17 same as the monk.

The only way you are getting superior is to have half-plate or full plate (18 and 19 respectively) And since you claimed 1 through 10, the monk is going to reach 18 AC by 8, and they had the same 16 AC as your dual-wielder at level 1 (actually, with light armor you would have started with leather, giving you an AC 14 and inferior to the Monk)

Overall, I'm not trying to say the Battlemaster is weak, but some of these arguments seem to be not taking into account just where the monk actually stands.

Yeah, see, the class is not a person that I'm blaming or faulting. It's one bit of rules text among many, written by the very same people who wrote the rules texts for feats and magic items. Either the character class under-performs in the context of the whole game or it doesn't. Saying "it's not the fault of the class features that it under-performs, it's the fault of some other part of the rules that it under-performs" is simply conceding that the class under-performs.

If a DM chooses to run a game without feats, he's chosen to nerf the fighter class's extra ASIs feature a bit. That's a perfectly acceptable choice; it isn't so important that it makes the game unplayable for the fighter. But showing that the monk keeps up with a nerfed version of the fighter is a demonstration of the monk's under-performance.

But if the argument is "Monks are weak because Fighters can get magical platemail" when magic items are not assumed part of the balance, is that something we should fix by fixing the monk, or by giving the monk items to increase AC?

If the problem with monk damage is more than they don't have access to Great Weapon Master, a feat generally considered overpowered to a degree, is the fix to increase monk damage or to give them access to an equivalent feat? When again, feats were not a considered part of class balance during the design process.


The issue seems to be less that the monk was poorly designed, and more that when the designed all the extra bells and whistles to make people more powerful, they forgot to add some whistles for the monk. Which means we need to focus on homebrewing Magic Items and Feats, not Monks.

Well, yes, if you equip a monk with four items that require attunement, in defiance of the rules, you can be just short of the AC of a fighter that has two items that don't require attunement.

Does the Defender take attunement? I didn't bother to check since it never shows up in my game. (I don't give out many magical items actually)

But, fine, drop the cloak and be two points under. Or, like I suggested, make the bracers not cost an attunement slot since they have zero reason to take up one.

If the DM is running a game where the fact that the basic versions of fighter magic items (weapons, armor, shields) do not require attunement is not an advantage, he again has chosen to nerf the fighter a bit. That's fine as a choice for any given campaign; it doesn't make the game unplayable for the fighter. But showing that the monk keeps up with a nerfed version of the fighter again goes ahead and demonstrates the monk's under-performance.

If you think a fighter with two legendary magical items for AC is "nerfed" that might explain a few things.

I've mentioned it!

If you expend Ki for Pass Without Trace you better hope you don't have fights right after. Same with the others. The utility is fun but I don't feel like Shadow Monk have enough utility to compensate for the massive drop in DPS they endure if they don't rest after doing out of combat stuff.

What massive drop in DPR? All of the DPR comparisons have been with a monk who does not use Flurry of Blows. A Shadow Monk using Pass without a Trace is no worse for damage than an Eldritch Knight casting Shield, or a Battlemaster using precise attack.

 

[Mort]

It doesn't have casting though, it has a total of 5 powers it can purchase uses of with Ki points.
The same argument regarding spending Ki points to fuel a power would also apply to a Kensei's Sharpen the Blade, or Deft Strike abilities ..yet those powers are very useful.

Do you consider the Kensei powers to be traps as well?

Kensai are one of the better monk subclasses - so are a bit of an outlier.

1. they're better on defense (+2 AC much of the time) so don't have to consider the bonus action dodge nearly as much (often it's actually a bad option for them because of the bonus action usage)
2. They're better on offense - can take a versatile weapon like the longsword or battleaxe and use it 2 handed so do 1d10 weapon damage and still get to use their unarmed strike.
3. They're better at range - They can use a longbow (and get to add extra damage on top of that) - so even that's usually better.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It doesn't have casting though, it has a total of 5 powers it can purchase uses of with Ki points.
The same argument regarding spending Ki points to fuel a power would also apply to a Kensei's Sharpen the Blade, or Deft Strike abilities ..yet those powers are very useful.

Do you consider the Kensei powers to be traps as well?

First, I avoid the use of the word "traps." I don't find that helpful, unless we are discussing Admiral Ackbar.

But the kensei (and all other Monk subclasses) are quite different. Sure, they might have an ability or two that is powered off of ki. But those are the standard combat abilities of the Monk and are not uncommon for the subclasses; it's not a "trap" to use three ki points to trigger a quivering palm.

The 4E's most similar subclasses are the 1/3 casters. And it clearly falls short.

I appreciate the conversation, and your opinion, but as someone who loves Monks and has seen multiple varieties in play, the 4E is the one that needs a lot of work.

 

[Todd Roybark]

If you expend Ki for Pass Without Trace you better hope you don't have fights right after.

That is the perfect time to get into fights! The spell lasts an hour and hides all signs of your passage.

It is time for your group to emulate the Mandolorian episode on the prison ship, an ambush repeatedly.
#Ambush!

 

[Stalker0]

4E is hot garbage, a judgement of having seen it in play. We can theory it all we want, but at the table it’s just not good

 

[Todd Roybark]

The 4E's most similar subclasses are the 1/3 casters. And it clearly falls short.

How does it fall short?

The 4E monk is granted access to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell effects 2 levels earlier then the 1/3 caster subclasses.

In that way it actually exceeds the 1/3 caster subclasses.

 

[Todd Roybark]

4E is hot garbage, a judgement of having seen it in play

Was this in the same game where Plate Mail was acquired at 2nd level? How much system mastery does this player have?

What makes it "hot garbage"?

 

[Bacon Bits]

How does it fall short?

The 4E monk is granted access to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spell effects 2 levels earlier then the 1/3 caster subclasses.

In that way it actually exceeds the 1/3 caster subclasses.

Because it's like making a Monk subclass who, instead of getting Ki, has to spend hit points to use their abilities. And then not giving the class any bonus hit points. And then still having other subclasses who have Ki. And then not making the Ki abilities mechanically better for the Blood Monk. It's burning the candle at both ends. It's the same problem all the Warlock Invocations that say "you may cast this spell by expending a Warlock slot" have. It's not a mechanically inoperable design; it just won't keep up in actual play unless it's cost makes up for the huge drawback.

Just eliminate the Ki cost of 4E monk and give them the Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight spellcasting progression and the super narrow spell list. Problem solved.

 

[Mort]

Ok I realize that where talking about 5e and that the topic has gone to (recently) 4 elements monks - but everytime I see the "4e" monk mentioned I keep thinking "wait, we're bringing in 4th edition into this?!?" and it gets very confusing. Especially because the 4th edition monk was a decent striker class that 5th edition could have easily emulated!

Anyway - carry on.

 

[Asisreo]

Because it's like making a Monk subclass who, instead of getting Ki, has to spend hit points to use their abilities. And then not giving the class any bonus hit points. And then still having other subclasses who have Ki. And then not making the Ki abilities mechanically better for the Blood Monk. It's burning the candle at both ends. It's the same problem all the Warlock Invocations that say "you may cast this spell by expending a Warlock slot" have. It's not a mechanically inoperable design; it just won't keep up in actual play unless it's cost makes up for the huge drawback.

Such designs are purposeful. They aren't competing with ki points so much as they're allowing more opportunities to open up.

AoE damage is good and using your Ki on AoE damage can be more efficient than using them for flurry for a variety of reasons.

The ability to fly as a monk is extremely good. The 4-elemonk can also target enemies from a significant distance while also keeping their mobility.

But you're not always doing this. You're using them sometimes, but when you use them correctly, sparks begin to fly.