D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Chaosmancer]

It actually does hit a lot of the Sword/Sorcery, Greyhawk vibes for me. Definitely doesn't feel like Forgotten Realms, unless you're in a rugged area like Icewind Dale or something.

See, that is the part I struggle with here.

It definitely doesn't feel like the Forgotten Realms... unless you are in an area of the forgotten realms that evokes that feel.

That sort of statement makes me feel like the other settings are broader somehow. Like they already include the best parts of Greyhawk.



I still think making Greyhawk into the "War and Land" setting makes sense, but I wouldn't be shocked to see people doing that somewhere else instead.

Hey all, I have been a long time DM and Player in Greyhawk campaigns. What I would like to see as a new GH product would be a campaign set in the distant past, for example; Rise of the Occluded Empire of Vecna, or during the Bakluni-Suel war. There is so much opportunity to create new products for GH if WotC just moves around in Eras. You want a campaign with High Magic, set it at the height of the Suel Empire. You want a campaign with the world at war, set it during the time of Vecna.

Since very little of this has been written, there is ample room for WotC to create something new that does not invalidate anything else that has been done.

In my opinion, the main difference between GH and all other settings is the WHY of its creation. GH was not created as a world setting, its main purpose was for EGG to run adventures and try out his new rules/classes/monsters/magic items/etc. He needed a blank slate to try all sorts of different things and see if his new rule system could handle it. Thus was born GH with all its different country compositions, its chaotic nature, and plenty of room to fill in the blanks. By its nature GH is designed to be able to handle any kind of campaign the DM wants to run.

There is a forum on Canonfire where some experienced [much kinder word than Old ] DM have put together a short half-page on many of the countries that describe the different kinds of campaign styles each one makes available to the DMs. You can find it here if you are interested.

Canonfire! Forums-Touring the Flanaess

I think part of the reticence to move around in the eras is in part because of a feeling that you would have to allow the breaking of canon.

Like, if you were to give me an adventure set while Vecna ruled, I would feel the desire to thwart his plans, but we know Kas was the one who betrayed him and caused the empire to crumble. So, you would either have to allow players the option of changing the canon, or you would need to enforce the canon no matter what the players do. And neither option feels very appealing I imagine.

Still, it can most certainly work, if timed carefully to be during the height of such things, and not in times when they are fated for big events.

 

[FrozenNorth]

It is. And to bring this back to gaming in a round about way, Gary Gygax hated the Conan movie so much. I mean Gygax made it a point to complain about Arnold's hair color because it didn't match Conan's black hair from the stories.

Gary Gygax, the original grognard!

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Considering the praise he heaped on the proposed D&D movie's script by James Goldman, Gygax has little room to complain about Conan the Barbarian and its authenticity.

I love both Conan movies, though Barbarian is the superior film. It's as much John Milius as it is R.E. Howard, but it's still one of the greatest fantasy movies made by my book.

It is. And to bring this back to gaming in a round about way, Gary Gygax hated the Conan movie so much. I mean Gygax made it a point to complain about Arnold's hair color because it didn't match Conan's black hair from the stories.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

See, that is the part I struggle with here.

It definitely doesn't feel like the Forgotten Realms... unless you are in an area of the forgotten realms that evokes that feel.

That sort of statement makes me feel like the other settings are broader somehow. Like they already include the best parts of Greyhawk.

I've said this before, but Forgotten Realms is so broad, so detailed and so comprehensive you can literally hold whatever game you want there. It's why it's constantly described as a "kitchen sink," because pretty much any kind of game can find a place there.

It's also the single biggest reason why some people don't like it. Some people don't like when every piece of the world has a book detailing something about it.

If you like that, then Greyhawk simply isn't for you. But if you do like the idea of a world that has a more consistent theming, plus enough blank spaces for a DM to leave their own personal imprint, then maybe it's worth trying.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

See, I like both Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. I don't think it has to be a dichotomy. Sometimes I want to run a campaign in a rich setting with a ton to inspire me and so much history to draw upon, sometimes I want a weird and evocative barebones world.

I've said this before, but Forgotten Realms is so broad, so detailed and so comprehensive you can literally hold whatever game you want there. It's why it's constantly described as a "kitchen sink," because pretty much any kind of game can find a place there.

It's also the single biggest reason why some people don't like it. Some people don't like when every piece of the world has a book detailing something about it.

If you like that, then Greyhawk simply isn't for you. But if you do like the idea of a world that has a more consistent theming, plus enough blank spaces for a DM to leave their own personal imprint, then maybe it's worth trying.

 

[David Howery]

I love both Conan movies, though Barbarian is the superior film. It's as much John Milius as it is R.E. Howard, but it's still one of the greatest fantasy movies made by my book.

I liked the first one too (partly for the superb music), but I agreed with EGG on the 'flower children of Doom' and the two guys slapping Conan around after he got captured.. both those scenes were really jarring...

 

[Urriak Uruk]

See, I like both Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. I don't think it has to be a dichotomy. Sometimes I want to run a campaign in a rich setting with a ton to inspire me and so much history to draw upon, sometimes I want a weird and evocative barebones world.

I never said it was, I like both too.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Ah, so my entitlement comes from the position of both acknowleding that I am ignorant (I haven't read those books. Sorry.) and saying that if it is impossible to even explain the setting without that context, which by the way, no one else has had a problem explaining any other setting, then it might have problems.

No, it comes from you complaining that people implied you couldn't have a meaningful part in the conversation, whilst refusing to learn about what is being discussed.

You want WoTC to see that this is a setting worth selling, but you can't even explain the appeal to someone unless they have a grounding in very specific media. Very specific old media.

ROFL! I don't even LIKE Greyhawk. Not sure where you've got this little bit of mad stuff from, but I've never expressed any particularly positive feelings towards the setting, and my first post in this thread clearly outlines where I don't think it can work without massive changes.

I specifically DO NOT think it's worth selling.

I just don't think people who don't want to (or don't want to make any effort to) understand something have any place in nuanced discussions about that thing.

Is he, though? I have been following this as a GH fan (though I am a fan of the "wrong" GH, i.e. From the Ashes), and it seems more like he's asking what makes the setting distinct and special to warrant a big product from WotC. That should be easy to answer without asking the prospective consumer to read a bunch of 40+ year old books, shouldn't it?

I don't think it does warrant that. I guess you do, but don't attribute that opinion to me. My point is that you can't understand the vibe without understanding what Sword and Sorcery is, and if you make no effort at all to understand it, then you can't really discuss it.

Also "a bunch of 40+ year old books" is some misleading nonsense. We're talking mostly short stories, and the word-count total on all the ones you'd need to "get" to understand S&S is pretty tiny, a lot less than the kind of fantasy novel that's routine today. Would you say it was unreasonable to expect someone to read ONE modern fantasy novel to properly understand the discussion about a setting directly derivative from that novel? Because that's what you're advocating for, effectively.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

A Barbarian character that has the Prodigy Feat and the Actor Feat can emulate Fafhrd, and bluff their way into the Thieves Guild to have the adventure.
They can explore, and contribute to the social pillars. They can still contribute in combat, especially Ancestor Barbarians.

Mr. McClaymore with GWM feats and the PAM feats, can't find the Thieves Guild, can't bluff their way in, and can't fight their way in...too many guards. They can't really help their group much outside melee combat.

Fafhrd the Barbarian helps their group in all pillars of play.
Conan the Barbarian excels at combat, which is cool, but is being carried by their party in all other tiers.

Complete nonsense, and the final two lines are an outright hypocritical lie. That's practically criminal levels of misleading. I mean, are you joking?

Prodigy only gives you 1 skill and 1 expertise (and 1 language). That's all it gives you. You're saying that unless a Barbarian takes Prodigy (and this is literally what you've said, I can't read any other meaning to it, because it's very clear), they're "being carried" by the party. Necessarily that includes all Barbarians that take neither GWM nor Prodigy (so all Feat-less Barbarians are "carried" by the party, for example).

What the heck? What? How? No.

No. A Barbarian with Prodigy has 5 skills instead of 4. He also has Expertise in one of them. That is not the difference between being "carried" any not. That's just beyond misleading into actual lying. By that same logic, a Barbarian with GWM is basically "carrying" the entire party in combat, which is obviously nonsense.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

In the original Deities & Demigods Fafhrd had a couple of cleric levels, as well as fighter and thief.