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D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

“meaningful way” is doing a lot of work that will never have a consensus what that means. As a Greyhawk fan and researcher, I contend you do not need to have researched the oevure of S&S to learn Greyhawk or appreciate it. I liked it before I dug into it.

That's a perfectly reasonable contention, but I disagree, personally. I think that people who aren't familiar with S&S may still appreciate GH, but they will do so in a different way to those who did.

I don't find it reasonable to complain about "meaningful way" when one uses the term "gatekeeping" though. That's laughable.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
I don't think it's always reading, but I think a lot of settings in a lot of games require understanding of a specific bit of media to properly get what the vibe is and understand them, yeah. Superhero RPGs in general are a pretty good example. Unless you're basically familiar with superheroes, a bunch of RPGs will seem pretty weird to you (and yeah, there's entire sections of the populace, especially 50+ and upscale, who really aren't - my parents might know who Superman and Spiderman are, but they couldn't get the "vibe" of a superhero RPG from that), and you're going to have odd taste in which ones to play, and perhaps odd ideas about which ones are best. I am very skeptical that someone who hadn't seen a least a couple of seasons worth of Buffy could have much of a useful opinion on the quality of the Buffy RPG. I think people who are only familiar with a bit or even none (!!!) of the source material for Exalted can have some pretty bizarre takes on it (or very particular ones). GURPS has quite a number of setting books which do a piss-poor job of explaining the setting if you're not familiar with the material it is drawing from - but they do tend to have excellent bibliographies outlining exactly what that material is.

But maybe just sticking with D&D settings, and I think the only one that stands out apart from GH in terms of understanding the setting really requiring something extrinsic to it is Ravenloft. I pick this particularly because when I first met Ravenloft, I'd barely been exposed to "gothic horror", particularly Hammer Horror and so on, and the whole thing seemed hoity-toity and pretty bloody dumb, just a snooty old-person horror setting for old people. Then like, 5-8 years later, thanks to C4 and other British TV channels, I'd seen like half the Hammer Horror back catalogue, we'd covered gothic horror in school, I'd read a bit of it (including stuff not set by the school). I still found the whole gothic horror thing a wee bit funny, but now I understood the setting, and it not longer seemed hoity-toity and "for old people", but just quite particular about its influences and how it should be run and so on.

And let's be clear, if you're saying this is a failing on GH's part, I agree, completely. The fact that the tone is implied, and not explained, indeed hard to explain, is a real issue, which any revision of GH would have to address. Because we can't, realistically, expect everyone to have read the relevant short stories, novellas, novels and so on.

EDIT - I think part of this is a "fish can't tell they're breathing water" thing, because like, a bet a number of RPGs today which makes sense to most people are going to be kinda-incomprehensible 50-100 years from now, when some "Literary Archaeologist" or whatever digs them up and tries to play them with their fellows. Or if not incomprehensible they might play them in a really fascinatingly different way to how they were "intended". It's probably already happening. Hell, you could argue it kind of already happened with D&D.

Okay, there is a lot of nuance I suppose, but I'm picking out a specific section here to make a point.

Why can't I have an opinion on the quality of a Buffy RPG?

I know Fantasy. I know Urban Fantasy. I know Modern Fantasy. I know Chosen One stories. I know about mythology including Demons, Vampires, and ect. I know Gaming. I know Role-playing Games. I know a bit about statistics and game balance.

The only thing I cannot possibly make an opinion on is how accurately the Buffy RPG emulates the TV show. But, even on that, I can potentially make some insights into whether or not that is a good thing. For example, I am vaguely aware that Buffy is supernaturally powerful do to her being Chosen, and that delegates many other characters to support roles. So, I could very easily make an informed opinion on how designing a game where only one person can do the monster killing and has a starring role can be incredibly difficult and there are many pitfalls at making other people at the table feel like extras.

That doesn't require knowledge of the Buffy Canon.

So... why can I not have those opinions, if I have the rule book, but have never seen the show?



No. You do have time. You're constantly re-reading stuff, and reading stuff like million-word web novels. You absolutely have time. You chose not to research it.

THAT'S FINE! It really is! You aren't a bad person or anything!

But can't you take some responsibility for your own choices? Own your choices? You don't give two shakes of a lamb's tail about Sword and Sorcery. That's completely fine! But it's your choice. If you were in jail, and not being allowed books or anything but this forum or something, I'd sympathize and maybe be willing to write the the thousands of words it would take to explain it properly (not that I am necessarily capable, but maybe).

I can honestly say I practice what I preach here, too, for once in my life. I genuinely try to avoid discussions where I have completely no idea what I'm talking about, or read up (if it's cheap/easy to do so, which it is here) if I want to participate.

Two points

1) Alright, fine. At some point in my life I will likely have enough time to read these novellas (whichever ones they end up being.) In fact, I could drop everything and track them down and get started right this moment. It might take me only a month to get the proper backing.

This thread will be dead in a month. This conversation over, and I will have prepared for I guess possible future discussion.

And that requires me literally dropping everything I am doing, right now, to go and track these things down. And why should I when

2) I do know quite a bit about what I am talking about. I know DnD. I know Fantasy. I know a few different fantasy genres. I am quite broadly familiar with a lot of topics revolving around this issue. The only thing I lack, is a knowledge of Sword and Sorcerery.

Which, this is a bit hilarious, isn't it? From this section of the discussion I would be better suited to discuss Greyhawk as a person who has no idea what DnD is, than as someone who doesn't know Sword and Sorcerery. Because my knowledge of DnD is not enough to talk about a DnD setting, I am required to have knowledge of a specific genre, to have enough understanding of thematics to even participate.


And, I came to this thread to learn about the setting. I came in expecting that I didn't know a whole lot about what made Greyhawk special. And I wasn't the only one asking, and I'm not the only one who has criticisms about what we finally dragged out of people. Heck, I might not be the only one who isn't terribly familiar with Sword and Sorcerery or Conan. I was just the only one dumb enough to admit it and try and seek clarification. That was my mistake. Admitting what I didn't know, and asking questions.

And for that, I got this.




Sorry mate, I know you find this to be "gatekeeping", but in reality, sometimes you have to understand something before you can really discuss it in any meaningful way. But you know, keep on keeping on.

You know what the funniest thing is about this? I've read quite a bit of dark fantasy and stuff that is likely inspired and riffing off of Sword and Sorcerery.

I read a lot, and I am an English Major. Thematics is something that I have a solid grounding in.

I just can't quote the right books, or gush about the right authors. So it doesn't matter. I might actually understand the themes and ideas, even without the knowledge of the specific stories like how Conan did XYZ with the yadda of who cares.

My understanding isn't being even questioned. It is being assumed. And since no one can talk about the setting beyong "Sword and Sorcerery" and "Gritty fantasy Mercenaries" then I'm excluded from the discussion until I can tell you all that I've read the Conan Canon and am part of the right club.

That's a perfectly reasonable contention, but I disagree, personally. I think that people who aren't familiar with S&S may still appreciate GH, but they will do so in a different way to those who did.

I don't find it reasonable to complain about "meaningful way" when one uses the term "gatekeeping" though. That's laughable.

How is appreciating it in a different way a problem? What, are there now correct ways to like something too?

I'm now completely lost, because if you believe it is possible to appreciate it without S&S knowledge, then why are you beating the drums that I should have dropped everything the instant I said I didn't know Conan to go read it? In your own opinion, I don't even need to do that to be able to appreciate the setting. I might just have a different appreciation.
 

Wishbone

Paladin Radmaster
As a Greyhawk fan and researcher, I contend you do not need to have researched the oevure of S&S to learn Greyhawk or appreciate it. I liked it before I dug into it.

That's a perfectly reasonable contention, but I disagree, personally. I think that people who aren't familiar with S&S may still appreciate GH, but they will do so in a different way to those who did.

I don't think there's anything wrong with people appreciating Greyhawk for different reasons or in a different context and there are likely benefits from introducing more contemporary perspectives. Someone who's unfamiliar with Sword & Sorcery is even capable of drawing inferences that those who are more familiar with the subgenre may overlook in Greyhawk that further enrich everyone's understanding of the setting. Fantasy cultural touchstones have moved on from the 70s and 80s—heck, since Game of Thrones and The Witcher we have popular fantasy properties based on franchises started as recently as the 90s!

I'm all for drawing context from history and contemporary fiction to inform why parts of Greyhawk are the way they are as published at the time, but outside of understanding the setting as a historical artifact I don't see how redirecting people to Robert E. Howard or Michael Moorcock as a great hook for people who didn't grow up with those books on buying into the setting in a more contemporary context. Watching the pilot of the Sword & Sorcery parody cartoon Korgoth of Barbaria tells me nothing directly about why Mordenkainen or any of those other wizards with anagram names matter so much to some people.

Others in this thread have made some compelling cases for why aspects of Greyhawk matter to D&D and to them in particular, so I don't think a background in Sword and Sorcery is strictly necessary as a hook to get people to participate in this conversation or to sell us on why the setting deserves to be discussed as a part of D&D's future. The fact that some posters are passionate enough about the setting to create 4+ threads on different aspects of it and to attempt to sell everyone on it says there is a vocal minority who are willing to evangelize others on the merits of the setting until we listen to their points.
 
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pemerton

Legend
REH's Conan stories are fantasy adventure set against a backdrop of "psedo-Earth" that he calls The Hyborian Age.

Instead of Spaniards we have Zingarans. Instead of South Asians we have Vendhyans. Instead of East Asians we have people from Khitai. Etc. What this means is that REH can tell stories that draw on real-world tropes and stereotypes without worrying about being faithful to real-world history.

In some cases this produces racist stories, but in other cases it is an effective narrative device.

Greyhawk is very similar to this. Instead of Switzerland we have Perrenland. Instead of Arabia and Central Asia we have Baklun and the Plains of the Paynims. Instead of high mediaeval Britain or France seen through the lens of Athurian myth, we have the paladin-ruled Kingdom of Furyondy. Instead of a decadent Roman Empire we have the collapsing Great Kingdom with break-away provinces and ruled by decadent fiend-worshippers. Except in a few cases (Perrenland, the Baklun, the pseudo-Vikings) the 1:1 correlation is not quite as strong as in REH's Conan stories, but the overall vibe is there. Another difference from REH is that demihumans are dealt in, creating correlations not with the real world but with JRRT/LotR as per @Doug McCrae's post upthread.

Just as REH's world of the Hyborian Age was not intended to be an object of study in itself, but rather a backdrop to be drawn upon for literary purposes, so the WoG does not reward being treated as an object of study in itself. It's a backdrop for faux-medieaveal FRPGing. As I posted upthread, it delivers all the tropes one needs, the bulk of them all able to be found right there in the middle of the maps.

I don't know if that's a good sales pitch or not, but that's what GH has to offer.

EDIT: inserted missing not in "does not reward being treated as an object of study in itself".
 
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grodog

Hero
I'm still catching up on the thread (and will be for another day or two, it seems!).

And, if I can't be brought into the setting enough to understand it, without reading two or three different authors or doing a bunch of research... then the hooks are buried too deep. I can't hook someone with "Go do the research, you will love it."

I guess I'm going to have to bite the bullet and be accused of lionfishing and discussing and bad faith, because I don't get how any of this is different from FR, or a dozen other fantasy worlds I could find.

Go ahead and let the accusations fly I guess, because I'm lost. You could be describing anything to me with that. Heck, isn't Theros most of that? Other than demi-humans almost being extinct you have world-shaking events, human majority, powerful (level 10 and up) casters are rare. I guess magic is fairly common for the PCs, but they are the heroes of legends. The common man doesn't have any of that wonder that the chosen of the gods have.

I think that you raise excellent points @Chaosmancer . Greyhawk should be able to stand on its own merits. We should be able to craft a solid elevator pitch for it. But perhaps, without an understanding and appreciation for its context*, Greyhawk really can't stand on its own merits any longer. It's worth considering.

An analogy using the failed John Carter movie may be apt here. The film failed on several fronts:
  1. The marketing campaign for John Carter completely failed to define the film, the character of John Carter, his adventures, the romance between JC and Dejah Thoris at all, even going so far as to fail to even mention "Mars" in the title as a possible clue that the story falls in the F&SF genre. (Burrough's Barsoom novels not only fall in the F&SF genre, they helped to defined that genre at/near its point of origin).
  2. The film also assumed too much familiarity with ERB's original source material and/or some understanding/appreciation of ERB's/Barsoom's importance to F&SF as a whole, despite the books having been first published in the 1910s and that the film didn't connect the dots for the potential movie viewer.
  3. Many of ERB's core ideas/concepts from the Barsoom novels had already been retold/reimagined by later film properties, so some of the "best" ways to describe John Carter to those who were not already familiar with Burrough's fiction were like, "Barsoom was a huge inspiration for Star Wars" (as it was to the creators of Avatar and Babylon 5, among many others). Fun, but it still doesn't tell you anything meaningful about John Carter unless you're already familiar with ERB and Star Wars' common literary hertiage, and if you are, you might just as soon prefer to rewatch Star Wars anyway, right?
The film's failures sound to me like how you would probably characterize how much of this discussion about Greyhawk has been going in the thread thus far (remember I'm still 10+ pages behind the present). Is that correct?

Allan.

* I'm already up way too late, and will reply with more on why/how that context may (or may not?) still be relevant, along with my version of the elevator pitch, after I catch up on more reading in the thread.

PPS - Canonfire! is still alive and kicking!: Canonfire! and Canonfire! ;)
 


Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
That's a perfectly reasonable contention, but I disagree, personally. I think that people who aren't familiar with S&S may still appreciate GH, but they will do so in a different way to those who did.

You've specifically said that you don't like Greyhawk. So I'm kind of curious as to why someone that doesn't like Greyhawk would suggest what others should do to "understand" Greyhawk.
 


Insulting other members
You've specifically said that you don't like Greyhawk. So I'm kind of curious as to why someone that doesn't like Greyhawk would suggest what others should do to "understand" Greyhawk.

This is a confusing question. Are you asking this honestly, or is it some sort of rhetorical device? I couldn't even begin to count the media properties/IPs I both understand and dislike. Indeed, very often seeing how something works is a cause to dislike it (c.f. the Sword of Truth series, once you've realized it's all libertarian/objectivist propaganda and messed-up BDSM stuff which real BDSM people likely frown at, it's unreadable - and it wasn't very readable to start with).

I mean, if you did English Lit, or Film Studies, did you like all the works you came to understand? I sure didn't. Some I did turn around on totally (Wuthering Heights, for example), but a lot just got more annoying (King Lear). Or god, what about something like Birth of a Nation (extreme example I know but your argument here is bizarre) - it's gross to start with, and as you see how it's put together and understand DW Griffith's goals, it's only more grotesque.

With GH I dunno if I actually dislike it as much as am unimpressed with it and think it needs a massive rejig if it wants to work in the modern era.

So... why can I not have those opinions, if I have the rule book, but have never seen the show?

No-one said you couldn't have those opinions. I really wish you'd stop dramatizing this and making yourself the victim at every turn. You've done it in a huge percentage of your responses here.

However, everyone has opinions, and ignorant opinions aren't worth much.

If you've never seen Buffy and are going on opinions from completely different sources, particularly culturally distant ones (anime) or pre-Buffy ones, you're likely to greatly misunderstand the tone, dynamic, and so on. Equally, if you're looking at a bunch of post-Buffy sources which largely sought to emulate Buffy (of which there have been many, including the recent Warrior Nun), you might be absolutely fine, and even understand stuff someone who had only seen Buffy didn't, because the derivative works had made it more obvious.

The only thing I cannot possibly make an opinion on is how accurately the Buffy RPG emulates the TV show. But, even on that, I can potentially make some insights into whether or not that is a good thing. For example, I am vaguely aware that Buffy is supernaturally powerful do to her being Chosen, and that delegates many other characters to support roles. So, I could very easily make an informed opinion on how designing a game where only one person can do the monster killing and has a starring role can be incredibly difficult and there are many pitfalls at making other people at the table feel like extras.

Sure, but this is filled with assumptions on your part. Buffy isn't the only one who can do the monster killing in Buffy, for example. This is one of the points the RPG makes - there are basically two types of character as a result.

But you're not really contradicting my point here. If you comment on a Buffy RPG without understanding the source material, then you opinion may or may not be informed or valuable, depending on a lot of factors. Whereas if you understood the source material, or at least directly derivative works, it would be vastly more likely to be valuable, and you'd be better placed to assess the value of your own input.

I've seen this before with RPGs - someone critiques some particular mechanic heavily, not understanding the purpose of the mechanic, because they don't understand the tone/source material. Sometimes this is a failing of the RPG itself. Sometimes, though, people come in really hard saying some mechanic sucks, when they just don't get the context it exists in. And because this is the internet, instead of saying "Oh, I guess that makes sense in context", they often just double-down. Sigh.

I mean, and unlike you here, I'm willing to admit I've been the guy in the wrong, especially when I was younger. I had strong opinions about stuff I profoundly didn't get. When I learned more about it, I felt like an idiot. But people attemping to explain it to me at the time had little impact - whereas understanding the context did.

You know what the funniest thing is about this? I've read quite a bit of dark fantasy and stuff that is likely inspired and riffing off of Sword and Sorcerery.

See, this is kind of what I'm talking about though - you're assuming that, and it's full-blast assumption.

Part of the problem is of course the definition of "dark fantasy". It's used in a lot of different ways, about a lot of different things (whereas S&S, interestingly, has a more narrow and reliable range of things it is applied to - it's one of the few fantasy subgenres which does). There is stuff categorized as "dark fantasy" that does solidly overlap with S&S, or even is also S&S (fantasy subgenres are rarely exclusive), like Elric or Kane.

But then there's tons of other stuff like Clive Barker or Stephen King's fantasy stuff which isn't much like S&S, or has minor points of similarity, but is called "dark fantasy", and that's without even talking about stuff like Anne Rice.

So is it possible? Yes. But what sort of dark fantasy are you talking about?

How is appreciating it in a different way a problem? What, are there now correct ways to like something too?

What's with the victim complex here? Did I say it was a problem? It's not, and I am kind of surprised you're claiming you're an English major but this is throwing you. It does mean, however, that you're going to read the setting very differently. There may be stuff that just doesn't make any sense to you without context.
 
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Chaosmancer

Legend
That sounds like a very egalitarian position to hold.

But the internet if full of people talking very authoritatively about things they know nothing about and don't understand, and a heck of a lot of damage they do to.

What authoritative position did I take in asking what the setting is about? What damage have I caused in admitting that I do not know, and seeking to understand?

Yes, I have put forth opinions. But, the start of my part in the conversation came from me admitting I didn't know, and seeking to understand. But now, even if someone starts to explain, if I don't understand it, or want to ask a clarifying question? I hesitate.

Because by asking, I paint myself as the villain forcing the "real fans" to work harder than they need to only so my proudly ignorant self can tear down their explanations and crap all over their setting. And, I'm not really exaggerating here. In the post that I said "I'm biting the bullet" I specifically remember skipping at least one other post I wanted to respond to, because I knew that if I responded with my opinion, I was going to get fingers pointed at me for revealing my "true" intentions.

So, I actually, personally, would have been better off talking very authoritatively about things I didn't understand. Because then I wouldn't be attacked for seeking to understand.
 

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