D&D 5E Reducing High Magic (6th-9th levels) Spell Slots Option

[DND_Reborn]

Couldn't you do an level 12 capped game and then just give out the higher level features by fiat, as rewards or boons? Give out high level spells as rituals with story-limited material components.

That's a good idea, too, and I'll add it to the list for today's discussion.

 

[TwoSix]

That's a good idea, too, and I'll add it to the list for today's discussion.

That's my plan for my next game. Capped at 10, and then the players can spend XP on features like higher proficiency, feats/ASIs, and some higher level class features, plus some bonus options earned through play.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Ok, so because you have lots of casters, you need to use the nerf bat against casters????? If they rose that high, they earned the right to use them. As you said, different gaming style. Maybe you should adjust the encounters a bit? Beholders exist, the spell silence is deadly to them and if you have a sorcerer it will at least force the use of silent spell.

If you throw only one kind of opponent per encounter, your monsters are predictable. Use varied encounters. Don't just throw giants, add an oni, a giant shaman/cleric or two. And flying demon/fiends going straight in hand to hand with a caster is always a good thing, for the monsters that is. The more varied your encounters are, the harder they will get for the same CR. Mono type encounters are usually too straightforward making them predictable and thus easier than their CR indicates.

Well, there's a whole lot of assuming going on here...

First, although I might be taking away some of their high magic goodies, I am giving them more lower level slots, which are still very useful. It I was just removing high magic entirely, I would agree it is a complete nerf, but I am not. If the PCs have only one encounter during a day, and decide to use their high magic, then good for them. If they don't need to use it, they won't. At tier 4 with 5 or 6 high magics per long rest, they can use one nearly every encounter and know they might need to hold on to that last one in case they need it later. That idea of holding on to it until you need it is what makes it more interesting IMO.

Anyway, beholders with proper support are great and months ago we had an encounter with one which disintegrated 2 of the 6 PCs during the series of battles we had against it. Silence is not a big deal--- you move out of the AoE pretty easily most of the time.

Our DM (and myself when I DM) throw all sorts of adventure appropriate encounters and creatures into the fray, often mixing melee, ranged, and magic as warranted. Flying creatures are a bit of hassle, but with 3 casters not much with the Fly spell, a couple magic items our group has (my PC has winged boots, for example), and class features like the draconic bloodline's wings at level 14.

 

[TheSword]

You're welcome. I am all for debate on an idea and yes I am sure our games differ.

As for the CR system, I think it partly falls apart because of the premise that magical items aren't needed, but yet most games play with them. If you take out the magic items in the storm giant rock calculations, for example, the wizard's AC drops dramatically to AC 16 (mage armor, DEX +3), and AC 21 with shield... so the odds of breaking concentration rises. Also, take out feats and MCing (so no wizard's with CON saves), and now breaking concentration is much more likely!

I'll post after my group discussion later today, so you'll know what their responses are.

Cheers!

I am all for limits by the way. I was very happy with an Epic 6 game using pathfinder set in the Warhammer World with the only caster a Pf1 bard. It was a lot of fun. I’m sure you’ll make it work.

 

[dave2008]

Sorry, I didn't see you posted again, so I'll reply to this as a courtesy.

Yes, with magic it is possible, but still hardly close to likely in many cases. I think most of those spells can be countered when cast IIRC and not many foes have those types of spell capabilities IME. So, while possible I would hardly agree "trivially easy".

Magic should have a huge impact, but not that earth-shattering on a regular basis. The stuff our DM has to throw at us to make it any sort of a challenge is patently ridiculous! If you had the same number of martial PCs dealing with such encounters without spellcasters, it would be regular TPKs. So, the issue is that those high magic spells are having too great an impact and unbalancing IME.


Disintegrate
Globe of Invulnerability
Harm
Mass Suggestion
Divine Word
Plane Shift
Simulacrum
Symbol
Teleport
Antimagic Field
Clone
Feeblemind
Maddening Darkness
Might Fortress
Power Word Stun
Foresight
Imprisonment
Invulnerability
Mass Heal
Meteor Swarm
Power Word Kill
Shapechange
Time Stop
True Polymoprh
Wish

Just to be clear: I have no issue with a PC being able to cast one of these (or even 2 at level 20), but anyone of these can have major impact on an encounter (which they should, I get that), but not on a handful of encounters a day IMO.

Just throw a couple beholders with their antimagic cones and then few minions to finish off the casters. Not that tough to take care of them

To be be more serious now. My group is 15th lvl and we have no issue with casters, but...we only have one caster (Wizard). The wizard can't do all that much to change my encounters (I'm the DM). However, I imagine that might change if we had 3 full casters.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I am all for limits by the way. I was very happy with an Epic 6 game using pathfinder set in the Warhammer World with the only caster a Pf1 bard. It was a lot of fun. I’m sure you’ll make it work.

Well, like most house-rules it comes down to fun (or "challenge" in this case) and ease of application. We've tried dozens of house-rules which all make sense, accomplish a goal, etc. but in the long run had little enough impact that there was no point in further adopting them. That is actually one of our goals for today's meeting--to hash out our "final" house-rules for future games.

This idea, while it makes sense to me, is one where there are certainly other ways to accomplish the goal (altering rests, etc.), but it also won't even impact the game until level 13, which we might not even get to again LOL!

So, we'll see how it goes today.

 

[Minigiant]

It's fixing that (especially what I'm seeing at tier 4) having a handful of high magic slots, instead of just 1 (or 2 perhaps at level 20), is just too powerful IMO.

But what do you mean by "too powerful"?

In T4, casters are balanced by having a handful of slots for spells that are buckets of dice and effects to wear down enemies. As you shift up tiers, your combat spells shift too. You arent tossing 3rd level fireballs at level 17 in the base game. That's for "trash" obstacles at best or for utility just like the old days. Especially since spells don't autoscale.

So the question is "what exactly do you want casters to be doing at tier 3 and tier 4?"

 

[TwoSix]

Ok, so because you have lots of casters, you need to use the nerf bat against casters????? If they rose that high, they earned the right to use them. As you said, different gaming style.

If the DM sets the expectation right away that high level spells won't be a feature in the game, then there won't be any player expectation that they'll earn the right to use them.

 

[nevin]

Sounds like you are giving them too much information. Spellcasters power dramatically increases if they know what they are facing and prepare.

. At the levels you are talking about archdevils, demigods and entire churches, a cabal of archmages or something similar should be the kinds of baddies working against them. At high level it can't all be black and white here's your encounter fight it. Really powerful intelligent bad guys are going to send powerful things to distract them and move them off the board while they go after the real prize. When they do confront those guys they'll have access to all the magic and maybe more. What happens if they cause enough damage to evils plans that two arch devil's get together and start granting each other limited wishes. Or they pull a dozen souls of damned Archmages out of torment and tell them they get another chance at life if the party dies.

If you just don't want to deal with high level magic don't run high level games. Every tool you need to deal with those magic exist in game as it's written. DM just needs to start thinking about big picture and how the PC's are hurting powerful interests with their actions.

 

[DND_Reborn]

My group is 15th lvl and we have no issue with casters, but...we only have one caster (Wizard). The wizard can't do all that much to change my encounters (I'm the DM). However, I imagine that might change if we had 3 full casters.

Yeah, one full caster wouldn't be nearly as big an issue probably out of a party of 4-6, but also wait until that Wizard gets 9th level spells... then let me know how it is going.