D&D 5E Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics

[Neonchameleon]

One of the issues I'm seeing here is that there are two different relationships between preserving and defiling magic; the 2e rules work very differently from either the 4e rules or the books. And how well psionics fit is in part a question of which you see as the core source material.

In the 2e game Preserving is good magic, defiling is bad magic, period. Defilers are on a quicker path to power - but all that means is a favourable XP track in a game with exponential XP. The choice between preserver and defiler was an irrevocable one made at first level. And preservers are poor, put-upon souls, subject to fear and hatred for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

In both the books and in 4e defiling was an option that every arcane spellcaster had and could use. It wasn't two separate classes, but defiling was something any mage could do - and did under stress. Their life, for example, was worth more than that shrub and any grass they might be standing on. No mage had to defile, but every mage could and was likely to under sufficient pressure. And fear of mages was much more justified because they all might defile.

Under the 2e paradigm having good but feared mages, neutral psionicists, and bad and hated mages makes reasonable sense. Preservers are genuinely innocent and you can thus play a supernatural character that doesn't have to deal with that with psionics. Under the books/4e paradigm where preservers are people sticking to the straight and narrow but can defile at any time psionicists are almost cheating by getting power without consequences.

 

[TwoSix]

Thinking about this further, I don't think that the dichotomy is particularly useful and is somewhat internally undermined already as there are several dichotomies in place: i.e., divine/primal magic vs. arcane magic and preserving magic vs. defiling magic. This latter, in particular, much as several other people in the latter pages say, kinda undermines the former dichotomy. Preserving magic feels like the creators throwing arcane magic players a bone - much like elemental clerics - but it's one that also one that seemingly runs counter to the themes of the setting: magic destroys the world. Preserving magic comes across as "safe fossil fuels."

That's not a bad point, actually. Just leaving arcane magic as defiling-only would be pretty interesting. Maybe require a skill check to not defile whenever you cast a spell. You can become better at not defiling through practice, but the risk is always there, and how much damage did you do while practicing? Was the risk worth the cost?

And yea, I never thought much of elemental clerics, I liked 4e's use of the various primal classes to represent service to various natural spirits much better. I'd rather see a druid with a modified spell list and some subclasses that overwrite wildshape.

 

[TwoSix]

Dark Sun is a brutish, often amoral setting where evil won and there's almost no hope for good. The play is in what's left -- in surviving. Defeating the Dragon Kings wasn't really in the purview of the printed materials, although it did feature in the novels. I don't think that Dark Sun can be called a good vs evil setting at all. It's too Mad Maxian for that, and, besides, evil already won.

Ehh...I'd argue with this a bit. I think "brutish struggle against the environment", Mad Max style, is certainly baked into the DNA of the setting. But I think "struggle to achieve the strength to overthrow the overwhelming power of a sorcerer-king" is also baked right in there. I mean, 2e had rules to become a dragon king or an avangion yourself for a reason (because we were all younger then and doing stuff like that seemed fun!), and 4e had Kalak's overthrow in Tyr as the starting point of the whole setting. One reason I preferred the 4e book over the 2e material was precisely because it buried elements of hope within all the grim, without making it too obvious.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Hm. So, who wonders if maybe they won't just rehash this, but double down on it, given current realities?

You'd hope, right?

But my fear is that they'll simply avoid the issue, either by not doing Dark Sun, or changing Dark Sun significantly - either removing defiling (making the problems be due to some one-off catastrophe in the past), or making defiling not linked to arcane magic, not a natural consequence of heavy use of arcane magic unless action is taken, but rather this weird thing a few bad guys did/do. I actually think the latter is sadly likely, and it undermines the whole vibe of the setting imo. I'd rather lose psionics than lose defiling as a default consequence of arcane magic, in terms of flavour/vibe for DS.

Hey, I hope I'm wrong and they do double-down, though.

I do wonder what they'll do with Bards - Warlocks can obviously go to being Templars - replace the normal patrons with Sorcerer lords (If WotC is feeling really lazy they could even use simple equivalence - i.e. this Sorcerer Lord = that patron-type). Sorcerers are arcane casters so should defile like Wizards but otherwise seem workable. Bards though in 5E are technically massive arcane casters but that doesn't fit well at all with how they are in Dark Sun's lore. So maybe something like a new subclass with a specific spell list which focuses on psionic stuff and we say they're psionic or something.

 

[TwoSix]

I think to do right by both the environmentalist themes and the Weird Fantasy tone, it would be best to dump the idea of The Way and double down on the weird aspect of Psionics. Make it too wild and unpredictable to actually serve as a safe alternative to magic. Sure, Psionics can be incredibly powerful, but you can’t exactly rely on the whims of random mutation to produce any particular desired effect. With discipline and training, you can learn to strengthen and hone your psionic gifts, but you have the powers you have. A telepath can learn to use their telepathy in new ways, and strengthen it like a muscle, but they’ll never practice themselves into learning pyrokenesis. That’s just not the mutation they were born with.

You could justify an awful lot of weird PC subclass options as "psionic mutations run amok".

Bonus points if psionic power is carried in the flesh, and eating psionic creatures has a chance to grant you their power. (Terrible for a player facing system, but fun as a story hook for super weird monsters!)

Having psionics as a grant of the sorcerer-kings' power would be an interesting revision of templars. Mind reading secret police in the city states would explain why so many people take their chances in the wild.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think "brutish struggle against the environment", Mad Max style, is certainly baked into the DNA of the setting. But I think "struggle to achieve the strength to overthrow the overwhelming power of a sorcerer-king" is also baked right in there.

I'd agree. I think the 2E setting had this too - it starts with the death of a Sorcerer-King, of course (spoilers for 28-year old boxed set!). I think it was expected that the PCs might eventually overthrow other SKs.

And yea, I never thought much of elemental clerics, I liked 4e's use of the various primal classes to represent service to various natural spirits much better. I'd rather see a druid with a modified spell list and some subclasses that overwrite wildshape.

Whilst I'd like that too, I think Clerics are inevitable in DS, so it'd be better to have them have appropriate subclasses - presumably elemental spirits, than to try and delete them.

Having psionics as a grant of the sorcerer-kings' power would be an interesting revision of templars. Mind reading secret police in the city states would explain why so many people take their chances in the wild.

It doesn't really make a lot of thematic sense, I'd say though, and Warlocks just seem complete naturals to fill in as Templars to me.

 

[Remathilis]

Dark Sun doesn't need psionics, but it would be a shame to have the setting without them. It's been a cornerstone of the setting since it was created, to just release it without them would be a little sad and wouldn't quite have that dark sun feeling for me.

This is the right answer. I'll add that I don't think psionics need be a unique mechanical system, but some combo of class features, spells, feats and racial features that clearly note they are psionic would be fine. (But that's a different thread).

 

[Ovinomancer]

Ehh...I'd argue with this a bit. I think "brutish struggle against the environment", Mad Max style, is certainly baked into the DNA of the setting. But I think "struggle to achieve the strength to overthrow the overwhelming power of a sorcerer-king" is also baked right in there. I mean, 2e had rules to become a dragon king or an avangion yourself for a reason (because we were all younger then and doing stuff like that seemed fun!), and 4e had Kalak's overthrow in Tyr as the starting point of the whole setting. One reason I preferred the 4e book over the 2e material was precisely because it buried elements of hope within all the grim, without making it too obvious.

Sure, but it's still the hopeful that existed at the end of Mad Max Fury Road -- Immortan Joe is defeated, there's water (for now) and some food, and people aren't under the yoke of an oppressive ruler for the moment. That's hope, sure, but not of saving the world. Defeating the Sorcerer Kings, likewise, was more of a power trip than saving the world -- the world is still dead, the Sorcerer Kings aren't what's keeping it dead (though they don't help), so defeating them doesn't really lead to saving the world -- just like defeating Immortan Joe and his brothers didn't lead to the saving of the world. But, yeah, local hope is worthwhile. Saving Athas is beyond the scope of the materials, if, as always, within the scope of your table.

 

[nevin]

I think preserving and defiling magic without psionics could make a good Darksun. Thing is then the Dragon Kings need artifacts or Some technology. I think you could drag technology in and have ancient technology that was used that is ds responsible for the world's current state. Something like Empire of the East books. Maybe magic developed because science actually figured out the real physics that holds the multiverse together.

or you just have to make all the dragon kings DemiPowers and assume the cataclysm fractured the connection to the outer planes. Divine spells will work travel to shadow plane and elemental planes would still be possible but physical travel to outer planes would be impossible making the Dragon Kings safe from any repercussions from Greater Dieties.

 

[nevin]

This is the right answer. I'll add that I don't think psionics need be a unique mechanical system, but some combo of class features, spells, feats and racial features that clearly note they are psionic would be fine. (But that's a different thread).

or throw in something like Nanite technology from Star finder . done properly they could be what powers Psioncs