D&D 5E Psionics in Tasha

[Chaosmancer]

My alt take on magic, and something I've been using since the 1980s: Magic spells come down to two elements: The formula and the power source. This idea has evolved and been revised through the editions, but the core idea has remained the same.

This is all really cool, and I like a lot of it.

But then we hit this

Psionic PCs (including monks) generate thir own power. It does not come from the arcane weave, from Deities/powers, or from the Lifeforce - they learn to create power within and use it to make magic happen. This self reliance makes their powers immune to dispel magic, anti-magic zones, dead magic zones or other magics/effects that cut off access to the weave. Each psonic being's magic takes the form they develop, sometimes mimicing the spellcasters that draw upon the weave, while at other times being very foreign. The Far Realms and abominations from it use this type of magic.

And we have a balance problem.

Magical Resistance? No
Dispelling effects? No
Curing effects with Lesser or Greater Restoration? No
Anti-Magic? No
Protection spells? No

By saying Psionics isn't magic, and works differently from magic, and can't be affected by magic, you are making a system of effects which are inherently far more powerful than every similar spell in the PHB.

In fact, let us take a very basic level 1 spell. Sleep.

Elves are immune to magical sleep. That is a limit on the spell.

They are not immune to Psionic sleep though, so a Psion under this set of rules innately has a more powerful version of sleep. It also can't be countered or dispelled, it works in an anti-magic zone. It is simply more powerful.

Which is a balance problem. And it will lead to more. What if a player argues that Succubi are immune to charm, but that is magical charm effects, not Psionic charm effects? Rakshasa and Globe of Invulnerability aren't immune to Psionic abilities. A wall of force can't stop the line of effect from a Psionic attack (after all, Psionics and magic don't interact, they aren't the same type of thing)

It goes too far. For no good reason.

Haven't read the thread or followed Psionicsgate closely, but it really seems like there's no point in adding--and calling it--"psionics" if it is just more spells, albeit of a psychic nature. Why not just add psychic-flavored spells to wizards or, better yet, sorcerers?

On the other hand, a multi-faceted approached could be taken, each as rules options:

*A "mind mage" wizard and/or sorcerer sub-class (this is the easy but blandest route they seem to be taking with Tasha's).
*A "mystic" or psion new class, with an entirely different sub-system that makes psionics feel and play differently.
*A AD&D style sub-system in which PCs of any and all classes can have "psychic abilities."

So there you have it: mind mage, mystic/psion, and psychic abilities. Best of all worlds, and all optional.

I am honestly baffled why it has been so hard for WotC to figure this out. These folks do game design as a full-time vocation. I know you can't please everyone all of the time, but there does seem to be general consensus that psionics should look and feel differently than other forms of supernatural power. To quote the Great French One, "Make It So."

The core issue seems to be "Psionic-magic transparency"

If they are both "Magical" then why make a new sub-system to achieve the same result. And if they are not magic, then you get some of the problems I went into above.

In addition, WoTC has gotten feedback that people don't like new sub-systems for abilities at the moment (the Psionic Die was not well-received) so there seems to be little incentive to make new, official sub-systems.

It was right up until the edition that ruined all that lore.

You can have that opinion.

But, "I don't like the changes they made" doesn't magically mean that those changes were not made. 4e is part of the Official DnD canon. If you can cite AD&D as precedent, then someone else can cite 4e as precedent. Both are official DnD editions, and their canon is equally valid in the discussion.

Even if you hate it and think it is stupid, and a horrible mistake that should vanish into the bowels of history... it was still an official edition of the game. And hating it doesn't change that fact.

 

[Shardstone]

So, gathering the good ideas from this thread so far:

• Psionics class focused on Attack/Defense modes as core feature.
• Cantrips that you put psi points into in order to increase their effects.
• Psi points that can be spent to cast normal spells (maybe replacing their components with Thought/Emotions?).
• Counterspell has disadvantage against spells cast with psi points.

Something I think is interesting too: what if, when a psi point-fueled spell is unleashed, it is ALWAYS concentration, even if the normal duration is Instantaneous? This is a mental, concentrating effect after all. This would give some more room in the power budget for psionic class features, because it means that casting any spell turns off your previously activated concentration spell.

Might just add a lot of bad bookkeeping though. Thoughts?

EDIT: If this creates a unified vision of psionics, I'd like the people who keep saying "there is never a unified vision" to at least say Enworld managed to do it for itself, lol

 

[Remathilis]

[QUOTE="PointOfIsnpiration, post: 8097223, member: 6807784] It boggles me that people are SO against a Psion class, and why WotC has only playtested 2 out of their 3 attempts, the 3rd one (Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour) being the one with the most promise but that never saw the light of day.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of derailing this thread utterly, I sometimes wonder what psionics would have looked like if Mearls wasn't persona non grata and was allowed to still be a forefront designer.

 

[Weiley31]

but could live with the diasadvantage of the explicit countering spells.

I absolutely agree!

 

[Shardstone]

[QUOTE="PointOfIsnpiration, post: 8097223, member: 6807784] It boggles me that people are SO against a Psion class, and why WotC has only playtested 2 out of their 3 attempts, the 3rd one (Mike Mearls Happy Fun Hour) being the one with the most promise but that never saw the light of day.

At the risk of derailing this thread utterly, I sometimes wonder what psionics would have looked like if Mearls wasn't persona non grata and was allowed to still be a forefront designer.
[/QUOTE]
Me too. That's part of the reason why I want to do the cantrip idea; it was a really good idea, fits psionics, and its a shame that apparently we'll just never be allowed to see it officially.

 

[Minigiant]

At the risk of derailing this thread utterly, I sometimes wonder what psionics would have looked like if Mearls wasn't persona non grata and was allowed to still be a forefront designer.

About the same.
WOTC knew that casual 5e fans didn't want to learn additional subsystems ontop of old classes.
But they made psioinics in the mystic very complex and added fiddly bits to psionic fighters and rogues.

Nothing Mearls could do to change that if they weren't willing to make a simple psion or a seperate psionic book.

 

[see]

If you don't let psionic classes write scrolls, you don't have to worry about wizards copying them.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If you don't let psionic classes write scrolls, you don't have to worry about wizards copying them.

Problem solved!

 

[Chaosmancer]

So, gathering the good ideas from this thread so far:

• Psionics class focused on Attack/Defense modes as core feature.
• Cantrips that you put psi points into in order to increase their effects.
• Psi points that can be spent to cast normal spells (maybe replacing their components with Thought/Emotions?).
• Counterspell has disadvantage against spells cast with psi points.

Something I think is interesting too: what if, when a psi point-fueled spell is unleashed, it is ALWAYS concentration, even if the normal duration is Instantaneous? This is a mental, concentrating effect after all. This would give some more room in the power budget for psionic class features, because it means that casting any spell turns off your previously activated concentration spell.

Might just add a lot of bad bookkeeping though. Thoughts?

EDIT: If this creates a unified vision of psionics, I'd like the people who keep saying "there is never a unified vision" to at least say Enworld managed to do it for itself, lol

Honestly. this is sounding a lot like Kibbletasty's Psion (which I am currently playing)

I like it a lot, and if you are looking for a good homebrewed option, I'd check it out. 5e - Psion (KibblesTasty) by KibblesTasty

 

[Shardstone]

I've read it! I like it, but as a designer myself, I often feel the need to make my own materials. The Kibble version is really good though, and captures a lot of what the UA Mystic wanted to be.