D&D 5E Variant Multiclassing (AD&D/Gygax Style), help with play balance

[Horwath]

I made a variant that gives 2 class levels at certain character levels(average HP at those levels).
otherwise multiclass as 5e rules, but classes must be within 1 level of each other.

Extra levels are at levels: 5,8,11,14,17,20

that is: level 5 is 3/3 split, level 8 is 5/5, level 11 is 7/7, level 14 is 9/9, level 17 is 11/11 and level 20 goes to 13/13 class levels.

 

[Coroc]

If you are not of the absolute power gamer fraction you can easily go 1level at a time, consistent with the MC rules as they are, finishing with a lvl 10/10 fighter mage, and still be quite on par with your group.

Your homebrew has several imbalances, especially when it comes to max spellevel it outshines the normal multiclass by several margins.

Your compensation by making slower progress doesn't alter this much.

E.g. by level 16 aka single class level 20 your char has 16d10 hp average 88 opposed to 10d10 + 10d6. While this seems ok, it has access to lvl 8 spells compared to lvl 5 for the raw 10/10 fighter mage.

 

[nevin]

Seems strong at lower levels, but the extra XP cost will cause them to fall behind pretty quickly. Given the HP is based on the half level equivalent, this might have survivability issues once the rest of the party is sitting at level 5-6. While I approve of a true gestalt multi-class concept, I think this needs a bit of work. Maybe give 3/4 XP, so they still fall behind, but not quite as badly.

I'd think if you were planning on playing from low to higherI'd just give them the highest ht pts, restrict any armor wearing r class to armor one below normal , unless they use a feat, and take away any bonus spells for intellect. Or bonus abilities for any stat. (It might be necessary to reduce them a bit more but that's where I'd start) . Also don't forget the multiclass character is going to have to roll spell failure checks on every spell they cast in armor. That's going to be a big penalty, rogues won't be able to be fully functional in heavier armor either. No one who tries to master two things should ever have all the benefits of both. That should even it out at lower levels. It'll still be more powerful at lower levels and spell casting wise you'll be behind the curve but you'll have more hitpts so I think it would be about right.

Might require a little bit of tweaking after that.

 

[Quartz]

Gain the highest number of skills

(Among many examples.)

Can I indulge in a pet peeve? I.e. grammar. You only have two classes so you should use the comparative - higher - and not the superlative. If there were three classes then the superlative would be correct.

 

[Wrathamon]

XP progression isnt a really good balance since a lot of 5e players use Milestone and a lot of DMs dont like the headache of vastly different character levels in a party.

 

[cbwjm]

Here are some quick rules I created for 2e style multiclassing:

You can have one, two, or three classes.

XP maximum is still kept the same (355, 000) which is divided between your classes. This means that with 2 classes, you can reach levels 15/15; with three classes you can reach levels 12/12/12.

Hit dice are combined together and divided by the number of classes and rounded down.

A fighter/mage/rogue would have d10+d6+d8 for a total of 24/3 or d8. A fighter cleric would have (10+8)/2 or 9 rounding down to d8.

If you would gain an ability score increase in each of your classes at the same level, you instead gain it only once.

Proficiency bonus* is based on your current level. This means a triple class would top out at +4, dual class at +5 whereas a single class reaches +6.

Spell slots follow the most beneficial progression (An eldritch knight/paladin/wizard has spell slots as a wizard).

Pros

• You gain a lot of abilities from each of your classes.
• You have the best spell slots out of all of your classes.

Cons

• You have a lower maximum level which means:
  • Lower proficiency bonus.
  • Lower overall hit points.
  • Less ASIs (both dual and triple classes miss out on the level 16 and level 19 ASIs, mitigated somewhat with fighter or rogue)
• You level slower than a single classed PC, this might impact survivability.

*If I ever end up using this, I'm thinking about making the proficiency bonus scale with XP equivalent instead of character level so that a 12th level fighter/mage/rogue still ends up with a +6 proficiency bonus.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I tried to make about 3 or 4 different versions of this back early in the edition cycle. You can probably find some of them in old topics I started. Eventually I decided that there are subclasses that can handle pretty much any multiclass concept I wanted to present except a good fighter/wizard. I like Bladesinger, but it wasn't really working for me--too much wizard and not enough fighter, while Eldritch Knight (which I also like) has a more extreme version of the opposite problem. Once I figured that out, I just bit the bullet and homebrewed a warrior-mage class. I made it a full caster class for simplicity (half caster wouldn't be enough). The numerical balance is primarily based on a comparison with Bladesinger, but I also looked at Valor Bard. Swords Bard wasn't out yet for comparison. It seems to be working really well for me.

I can provide some feedback based on my earlier gestalt/hybrid attempts:

-If you use the maximum hit points, you favor classes with a high hit point difference (d12s or d10s with d6s) and completely dis-favor classes with the same HD.
-I strongly recommend against having the actual level and number of HD be lower. That's just a mess. It doesn't make sense in any form of modern game design to have less hit points because you have a double major. Better to have their character level the same, and just have their class features show up on the schedule you like. If you do so, you can easily give them hp/HD that are half way between the two classes.
-There are some potential feature interactions that can be problematic, and you might want to look at them on a case by case basis. The primary thing to consider is that each class has a damage scaling mechanism--it might be Extra Attack, or Sneak Attack, or cantrips that upscale, or Divine Strike, etc. You want to see how these things interact. Not getting your upgrades at appropriate levels will put you behind the party in standard combat contribution, while stacking them from multiple classes can put you ahead of the curve.
-You might also want to just straight up limit the combinations, especially if you are going for a classic feel. That allows you to maintain more control over the potential interactions.
-The way you are doing spell slots (based on the lowered level, rather than what they would have at their XP level) isn't something terribly satisfying. Your cleric/mage is going to feel less magical than a cleric or a mage, and they should feel equally magical. Giving them a normal character level and basing spell slots on character level rather than class feature level could fix that. They still would be limited to knowing spells of the appropriate class levels. So you'd have the same spell slots, but you'd trade higher spell levels for the flexibility of having a larger number of prepared spells each day.

 

[dmhelp]

Okay, based on feedback I've done the following:
1. Characters have a character level (that determines hp, proficiency, cantrip damage, and spell slots per day).
2. XP advancement is the same as a single classed character, so milestone advancement works fine.
3. I slowed the multiclass level progression (but right now you still end up as a 16/16 at level 20 instead of a 10/10).
4. Because this makes for a more powerful character I dropped hp and skills known to the lower class instead of the higher (average would make sense but right now it feels like this version of multiclassing may be a little overpowered).

Do I need to drop the 16/16 level 20 equivalence down to a lower level? I would probably switch to the average number of hp and skills if such a change was made.

 

[Horwath]

If you are not of the absolute power gamer fraction you can easily go 1level at a time, consistent with the MC rules as they are, finishing with a lvl 10/10 fighter mage, and still be quite on par with your group.

No you are not.

8d6 fireball is very good at 5th level but pretty bad at 10th level. At 10th level it's more of a mook mop-up spell.

Same with extra attack.

Not to mention that you still can't do 2 things at once(except one instance of Action surge). You can either attack or cast a spell.

at 11th level(start of tier 3) every 6/5 split is worse than any single class of 11th level(well, maybe not ranger or monk ).
you can maybe make some cheesy 3/8 or 2/9 dip that could go above 11th single class power level, but this suggestion is also to prevent 1-3 level dips.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Okay, based on feedback I've done the following:
1. Characters have a character level (that determines hp, proficiency, cantrip damage, and spell slots per day).
2. XP advancement is the same as a single classed character, so milestone advancement works fine.
3. I slowed the multiclass level progression (but right now you still end up as a 16/16 at level 20 instead of a 10/10).
4. Because this makes for a more powerful character I dropped hp and skills known to the lower class instead of the higher (average would make sense but right now it feels like this version of multiclassing may be a little overpowered).

Do I need to drop the 16/16 level 20 equivalence down to a lower level? I would probably switch to the average number of hp and skills if such a change was made.

One issue you'll have is that giving them the hit points from the lowest class creates a similar issue to giving them the hit points from the highest class--it makes the other class in the combination irrelevant. Part of the feature of a barbarian is that it has d12s, etc. You're really best off finding a way that feels satisfying to make the hit points more or less in the middle. You might want to use a chart where it tells you what HD to used based on what the HD of the 2 classes are, if you don't want to end up with things like D7s and D9s. One way you could handle odd averages is to give them the hit points per level from one class's hit die, but the actual HD size (for rolling HD) of the other class. You might say you take the average HD, and if it's an odd number you round down, but then give them one extra hit point per level. So a fighter/wizard just has d8s, while a barbarian/wizard also has d8s, but gains 6 hp per level (9 hp at 1st level) rather than 5 hp per level and 8 hp at 1st level.