D&D General Who coined the phrase "murder hobo"

[wingsandsword]

At the same time, there is no citation given before 2007.

A lot of people seem to remember it from earlier, but the onus is on them to find an earlier written use.

No it isn't.

I clearly remember the term in use before then, because I remember people I haven't seen since 2006 introducing me to the term when I talked to them in person a decade and a half ago. It was a term that was in use, I have no idea about how widespread it was online, but I know actual meatspace humans were using it in conversation.

I'm not going to go around digging through the archives of the web for some reference to something. . .when for all I know it wasn't in widespread use on the internet and was a term my friends were using.

It's possible the term was created independently by several different groups offline before it caught on online. Or they could have met at conventions and the term spread from there.

I know the term existed before then. I don't feel the need to prove it to anyone.

What this thread has taught me is:

1. The term became a LOT more popular in the 2000's, and spread online via messageboards in the early 2010's.
2. Some people think if they can't verify it in a quick internet search, and that what's in Google, UseNet and Dragon Magazine archives is a complete and infallible archive of gaming culture and that anyone disagreeing with it must be lying.

 

[Guest 6801328]

In related news, I was not able to find any YouTube videos of flint-knapping that predated 2015, so I’m starting to doubt this whole “cavemen did it” theory.

 

[LordEntrails]

A lot of people seem to remember it from earlier, but the onus is on them to find an earlier written use.

Completely agree with @wingsandsword

No it's not. We are not obligated to do any such thing. You have multiple people telling you the term predates your findings. There is no reason to believe the people are disingenuous or are lying.

 

[Azzy]

2. Some people think if they can't verify it in a quick internet search, and that what's in Google, UseNet and Dragon Magazine archives is a complete and infallible archive of gaming culture and that anyone disagreeing with it must be lying.

Or, rather, that people think that the attestation of the term should be held to the same standard as that of any other word or term.

Again, people need to keep in mind that: 1) There will likely be a period (brief if at all in the era of the internet, though) of colloqial usage before a word, term, or phrase gets written down (or digitally recordered), so there may be a gap beteen first actual usage and first recorded usage. 2) Memories are tricky, and people have been known to subconsciously insert details into older memories that weren't actually there and will swear and be damned that it was so (cf. the monocle of the Monopoly Man, Rich Uncle Pennybags). [Again, this is no indiction against say that they remember earlier usage, only that memories that can't be attested with verifiable sources are worth only so much when trying to create an objective picture of something.]

 

[Aldarc]

Completely agree with @wingsandsword

No it's not. We are not obligated to do any such thing. You have multiple people telling you the term predates your findings. There is no reason to believe the people are disingenuous or are lying.

It's not an accusation that people are being disingenuous or lying. False memories are also a plausible explanation.

That said, when the subject matter pertains to the origins of a term, then simply going on decades plus of hearsay can hardly count as a reliable or verifiable source. If it was as common as people say prior to 2007, then we should expect to find a source or any literary source that can verify that the term predates 2007.

 

[Kobold Stew]

No it isn't.
<SNIP>
2. Some people think if they can't verify it in a quick internet search, and that what's in Google, UseNet and Dragon Magazine archives is a complete and infallible archive of gaming culture and that anyone disagreeing with it must be lying

No it's not. We are not obligated to do any such thing. You have multiple people telling you the term predates your findings. There is no reason to believe the people are disingenuous or are lying

You guys are funny. You know I didn't call you disingenuous or liars, and in fact (I assure you) that is not my assumption. But just as putting words in other peoples' mouths is bad argumentation, I suspect you know that one can't prove a negative. That means, if you want to convince anyone or be found to have coined the term (the premise of the thread, after all), the onus is on finding a positive use of the term, anywhere.

One of you says that you don't feel a need to prove it. That's fine too of course.

In related news, I was not able to find any YouTube videos of flint-knapping that predated 2015, so I’m starting to doubt this whole “cavemen did it” theory.

Hilarious. For your edification, here is a link to an article from 1978 that documents modern attempts to reproduce flint flakes found in archaeological sites that go back to 1838.

Truth is, we don't know "cavemen" did it, but it's the best explanation of the archaeological record, and flint tools have been found in multiple sites that can be securely dated. And we have almost 200 years of modern anthropological research to support it.

 

[LordEntrails]

Well enjoy your discussion.

I'm not trying to prove anything. And yes, if it mattered (such as for a legal matter etc) then a reliable and verifiable resource would be needed. But that's not this case. And, even if in an important matter if you couldn't find a verifiable attribution yet you were told repeatedly from multiple sources that your off by multiple decades, then you should at least accept that what you have verified is probably inadequate.

 

[Aldarc]

And multiple sources believe that the Wicked Queen in Snow White says "mirror, mirror on the wall" and that Darth Vader says "Luke, I am your father."

 

[Bohandas]

I happen to agree Azzy here. There is zero evidence that this phrase appeared anywhere before 2007. Google agrees with me, though their search only goes to 2004.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=%22murder%20hobo%22

-- appears zero times until 2007, when it completely peaks, saw some spotty references in the few years' following, and then only started to kind of trend starting around 2014. One of the peaks here from January, 2010 ONLY shows 34 references. That's hardly universal acceptance and adoption of the phrase.

To me that looks like their data being spotty.

Also, didn't ypu say earlier that you found a reference from 1997?

 

[der_kluge]

To me that looks like their data being spotty.

Also, didn't ypu say earlier that you found a reference from 1997?

I found "Murderous hobo" from 2009, and "murder hobo" in 2013.

I'm going to see if I can find of D&D-related usenet groups to search through. If I can find even 1 reference to "murder hobo" prior to 2007, at the very least, I've disproved the article I linked in the first page.