D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Chaosmancer]

It would be other than the fact there is not one single church to form such a Theocracy. There are literally hundreds of different faiths, all of which are competing against each other.

Some societies are de facto or de jure Theocracies; the ones where the members of the faith of a single God has eliminated all rivals (the Zentarim and their worship of Bane is a good example). The Mulhorandi have united under a loose pantheon, and the Untheric nation did the same.

I guess my quick writing was a bit of a mistake.

When I said that "the world would be a Theocracy" I meant that every country would be a Theocracy, not that they'd all be the same Theocracy.

Assuming that doesn't clarify, I'll move on to assuming that you are referring to the number of churches in existence would mean that Kings would still rule. I think that is completely wrong.

Looking at historical records of places like Babylon or Akadia, heck even Egypt, we see that even with multiple competing dieties and religions, a stable government was able to form, with the Ruler also being a High Priest of a religion. I would also say that a Republic run by a group of churches still qualifies as a Theocracy. It would just be a Theocratic Republic.

Amusingly, this would actually work incredibly well in FR, considering how many of the "nations" of FR are really just City-States. That organization would be perfect for a set-up where local churches take power, bullying the other religions into lesser positions of power.


But, back to the broader point. If the solution to "why isn't everyone in FR dead from all these catastrophes" is "the churches work miracles to keep everything running" then that should logically lead into "the churches run everything"

It doesn't though. As you mention, Theocratic societies in FR are actually rare, which does not follow from the set-up. Sure, maybe one or two incredibly good political figures could play the churches off each other to balance themselves at the top of the heap, but if your biggest political question is "how do I ensure the church's loyalty" we are working in a very different world than what is presented.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think, after reading this thread, that there is a lot of talking past each other.


These issues are not the end of the world, but they are annoying. With how quickly and easily various posters found solutions to the problem of "how is everyone still alive" and those solutions adding so much more to the premise and giving a DM more to gnaw on, it really makes you think about why none of those solutions were used.

I don't want to judge anyone, I'm sure the realities of the production and all that are much different than us who are given a single problem and all the pieces needed to solve it. But it is something you see in Fantasy all the time. Very few people actually bother with working through the knock-on effects of something. But I always find it more compelling and better writing when they do.

Can I enjoy a piece of literature where certain inconsistencies and problems aren't addressed? Sure. I've done it before, I can do it again.

Do I tend to enjoy them even more when those problems are resolved with clever solutions that change the world and make it deeper and more interesting? Yes. Thousands of times yes.

 

[Flamestrike]

When I said that "the world would be a Theocracy" I meant that every country would be a Theocracy, not that they'd all be the same Theocracy.

Nearly every country has dozens of churches struggling for control.

Think of them all as being akin to Rome circa 0AD. The churches of the various Gods have a lot of power, but they're still subordinate to the political ruling class.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Can I enjoy a piece of literature where certain inconsistencies and problems aren't addressed? Sure. I've done it before, I can do it again. Do I tend to enjoy them even more when those problems are resolved with clever solutions that change the world and make it deeper and more interesting? Yes. Thousands of times yes.

Indeed!

Not that I speak for anyone other than myself, but I think that most of us defending the adventure can agree that it would be better if they'd included a bit more detail to the premise. I think the general objection was just to the idea that this adventure is terrible because of this one detail. There's a lot of good stuff in there, otherwise.

Obviously, (or at least, I think it ought to be implicit) everyone is perfectly within their rights to like or not like the adventure. (Again, not trying to imply that you disagree with that sentiment).

 

[MarkB]

Looking at historical records of places like Babylon or Akadia, heck even Egypt, we see that even with multiple competing dieties and religions, a stable government was able to form, with the Ruler also being a High Priest of a religion. I would also say that a Republic run by a group of churches still qualifies as a Theocracy. It would just be a Theocratic Republic.

Well, one difference there is that those places didn't actually have multiple real, competing deities. They instead had cartels of quasi-competing priests, all of whom had the shared interest of "religious institutions should have more power", which allowed for a greater degree of cooperation than is available when your very real, actual god is telling you to kick the other god's followers' asses.

 

[Oofta]

Well the basic premise also includes some light during the day, just not bright sunshine. It has not been pitch black for the past two years. In any case, it's a couple of lines and not something I would judge an entire mod on.

Another thing is that 5E has really taken kind of a hands off approach. Provide a base for the game, but expect and assume that each DM and group will fill it in to suit their tastes. I think of it in some ways as more of a coloring book or paint by numbers print than a detailed picture. That works for me because then I can adjust things for my group. Of course that's not going to work for everyone, nothing ever will.

 

[TheSword]

No and you’re also skipping Dragon Heist & Mad Mage. Dragon Heist especially notorious for not featuring the promised heist!

Lol I deliberately skipped those two. I have a soft spot for both, despite the criticisms. Mad Mage was too ambitious for a single book though I liked a lot of stuff in there.

Dragon Heist was over complicated and would have been better served by making more of the interconnected factions and rivalries rather than the seasons gimmick. Really Dragon Heist was a Waterdeep sourcebook and mini adventure as a backdrop for Mad Mage. I’d have liked to see better integration between the two.

 

[robus]

Another thing is that 5E has really taken kind of a hands off approach. Provide a base for the game, but expect and assume that each DM and group will fill it in to suit their tastes. I think of it in some ways as more of a coloring book or paint by numbers print than a detailed picture. That works for me because then I can adjust things for my group. Of course that's not going to work for everyone, nothing ever will.

Yep and I’m getting there, but as someone starting out as a DM with 5e the learning was not enhanced by the need to not only understand the rules and the adventure (because I naively thought it’d be like training wheels ) but also deal with issues within the adventure.

My next campaign will be of my own devising where all issues will at least be mine alone

 

[akr71]

Oh! I forgot to add the other change i was going to make: The setting mentions geothermal vents that keep the lakes from completely freezing. I'm also going to add that Bryn Shander is where it is, because there are major geothermal vents under it. These not only keep the houses warm, they provide hot water for bath houses and saunas, and maybe even keep the surrounding land a bit warmer and help with farming a bit.

Those vents could also provide chemical nutrients for bacteria at the bottom of the lakes, which in turn feed small fish, which feed bigger fish. So the lakes could still provide fish.

If the lakes were warm enough, there could still be lichen and moss by the lake shore, providing grazing for reindeer and other herbivores. Most northern mammals have evolved to just scrape by through the harsh polar winter and then fatten up in the spring. It might be enough to stretch it a bit, but I can't imagine more that a few more months - not two years.

 

[Eltab]

Those vents could also provide chemical nutrients for bacteria at the bottom of the lakes, which in turn feed small fish, which feed bigger fish. So the lakes could still provide fish.

If the lakes were warm enough, there could still be lichen and moss by the lake shore, providing grazing for reindeer and other herbivores. Most northern mammals have evolved to just scrape by through the harsh polar winter and then fatten up in the spring. It might be enough to stretch it a bit, but I can't imagine more that a few more months - not two years.

IRL animals have to be able to survive a harsh winter or a poor summer. Two such in a row is when the die-offs (and/or birthing failures) begin. Which gives us a way to peg the timeframe leading to the adventure.

Nice point about the hotsprings. I can see some grizzled old codger secretly telling the Town Speaker "Maybe a dozen or two of us can stick it out through the normal winter months, 'cuz there's hot water at the bottom of the lake for a few fish. ... But not everybody, Mayor. Not all of us."