D&D 5E A brief rant about Rime of the Frost Maiden, farming, logistics, and ecology

[Shardstone]

Wish the people in this thread who are here just to tell us who don't like the adventure to "Get over it" would get over it themselves and go to another thread TBH. The discourse stops being fun when its people like Sword just telling us over and over and over and over again that we don't know how to play the game, don't know how to play or read D&D, and that we are wrong, bad, and incorrect for our views on this adventure. You too Oofta. Why are you here if just to repeatedly tell us that we are a bunch of mis-informed neanderthals?

 

[Oofta]

You did read the title of the thread and the original post, right? ;-)

Which included a section called "My Solution". Which is why I gave it a thumbs up.

 

[Fenris-77]

Delusions of persecution, oh noes! I'm kidding, but there are perfectly cromulent replies to this thread and topic that do not require the poster to agree with the OP. I don't, for example, and I explained how I handle similar issues. That said, sarcastic depreciation of people's skills is a bummer, I agree.

 

[TheSword]

The discourse stops being fun when its people like Sword just telling us over and over and over and over again that we don't know how to play the game, don't know how to play or read D&D....

I don’t believe I have said you don’t know how to play the game or that you don’t know how to play or read D&D... but thanks for making it personal.

If someone makes a statement like “This book is a waste of money because of X”... and then we challenge the assumptions of X and say the book isn’t a waste of money... I reckon we’re pretty much following the purpose of the thread.

Most of us have agreed that the extremely negative views of some of the earlier posters - that WOC is trash and incompetent - don’t represent the majority. We also accept that you can have a view of the product without having read it. I reckon Oofta, others and I have been pretty reasonable in our responses.

 

[jasper]

Just read the Revel’s End section. Prison run by the Lord’s Alliance. Due to magic, all interior spaces stay at 68 degrees Fahrenheit and are lit by continual light spells. Also, apparently you can get a ship here to take you out of Icewind Dale.

Surely the place is swarming with desperate refugees from the Ten Towns, right?

Nope. Business as usual and plenty of room. Upon request, the warden will put up the adventurers for up to two days rent free, meals included.

This is not me trying to pick things apart. There is stuff in this adventure that doesn’t, on a basic level, make sense.

I have not told my players. But I a rolling a d10 at the end of each month. That is the number of people leaving or dying in each town. Some are taking the Revel's End ship.

 

[Azzy]

While I agree that they got pretty heavy-handed with a 2-year long winter with averaging temperatures of -45C (I’m going by earlier posts here, is that correct?), there is a point where one needs to accept that a magical winter can ignore the geological and meteorological forces that cause temperature to drop or temperate. So while I raise an eyebrow at some of that apoca-winter’s immediate concequences (or lack thereof) I don’t question how it can happen.

As far as I’m concerned, Auril could create an eternal winter in the middle of a Sahara-like desert and I’d buy it. Magic is, after all, the very definition of what goes against t established order of nature.

Pre-Auril's Snowscapades, Icewind Dale could normally reach temperatures as low as -40℃. We also have to keep in mind that this the same setting in which the Anauroch Desert was created as the side-effect of a magical spat between the Netherese and the Phaerimm and unnaturally persists despite the surrounding environs. Also, the Icewind Dale area is strewn with the ostensibly non-magic substance black ice/chardalyn, the magical fallout of the destruction of an artifact and tends to be suffused with demonic magic (despite not being magical). It's also home to one of the fallen Netherese floating cities (and keep in mind the environmental side-effects of the Netherese magic. Then there was the time that Icewind Dale suffered from a demon-induced environmental disaster. So, with the area's history in mind, perhaps the flora and fauna have had enough exposed to weird magics that they've become unnaturally hardy and adaptive. Perhaps, also, Auril's temper tantrum is being tempered (yes, that was intentional) slightly by a subconscious rational thought about not wanting to destroy her worshipers (and thus the flora and fauna that they depend upon) in her Apokalyptischer Winter des Schicksals (sorry, more Google German).

Sure, this is pure apologia (as I'm trying to work more or less within the framework that we're given). However, I think that, within the context of the rest of the Forgotten Realms, this is one of the lesser eyebrow-raising and questionable occurrences to grace the setting (and that's before considering the Spell Plague and accompanying shenanigans that happened to the Realms during 4e). Of course, one's tolerance of Realmsian BS-ery may vary.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I don’t believe I have said you don’t know how to play the game or that you don’t know how to play or read D&D... but thanks for making it personal.

If someone makes a statement like “This book is a waste of money because of X”... and then we challenge the assumptions of X and say the book isn’t a waste of money... I reckon we’re pretty much following the purpose of the thread.

Yes. In a thread whose purpose is ranting about the problem of describing a "regular harsh winter" where "apocalyptic conditions" would feel better, countering that regular conditions are enough and that the premise wouldn't lead to apocalyptic conditions is a perfectly valid answer in my opinion.

Reducing the length and severity of the winter is a proposed solution, (basically aknowledging there was a problem, albeit easily fixed) with a very good outcome (it's consistent with 95% of the module so it will necessitate very little effort from the DM) and a very bad outcome (it's outside of the pitch of an horror-themed story as the result is just a regular adventure with a bad guy using a harsh winter as a tool staying in the background... as evidenced by the easiness to overcome the most common consequences of it, by wearing the free winter clothes provided to all starting characters).

On the other hand, saying "the problem isn't there in the first place and there was no two-years long sunless winter, just a worse than usual winter and the sun is just late reappearing after the regular two-month long night" or "my players or most players will gloss over it, yours should too" is not something that addresses the problem, it is either ignoring the problem or fixing it stealthily by changing the premise to fit the depicted adventure.

Those wishing to improve the module by exploring the consequences of a winter apocalypse (with true horror elements... "what if the sacrifices to Auril where rational things to do and actually saved lives? Would the character act to stop them?" "what about cannibalism, let's put some in the dale as obviously you wouldn't just bury hanged criminals when they are apparently 125,000 calories of free food [I learnt that reading this very forum] and could be put to use in really desperate times? what would the characters say?" "what are the priest doing? Are they creating food as much as they can to relieve the population and if they aren't... why?" Many path of improving the module by respecting the premise of the horror story open up if you acknowledge that there is a disconnect between the setup (two year of sunless winter) and the adventure module as written (a harsh winter).

I don't see how "just gloss over the problem and enjoy the adventure as written as apparently many have done judging by the online reviews" is MORE CREATIVE and therefore more useful to anyone than acknowledging the problem which allows reflection on how to introduce elements that could benefit some groups (even if it's not yours or the majority's group).

I agree that the problem with the tree surviving discussed upthread was minor, but if this discussion hadn't taken place, I for one would probably have stayed on my mind image of the Icewind Dale (pre-Auril's intervention) as mid-Northern Alberta, not Baffin Island-like, which changes description of the environment completely...

 

[TheSword]

Yes. In a thread whose purpose is ranting about the problem of describing a "regular harsh winter" where "apocalyptic conditions" would feel better, countering that regular conditions are enough and that the premise wouldn't lead to apocalyptic conditions is a perfectly valid answer in my opinion.

Reducing the length and severity of the winter is a proposed solution, (basically aknowledging there was a problem, albeit easily fixed) with a very good outcome (it's consistent with 95% of the module so it will necessitate very little effort from the DM) and a very bad outcome (it's outside of the pitch of an horror-themed story as the result is just a regular adventure with a bad guy using a harsh winter as a tool staying in the background... as evidenced by the easiness to overcome the most common consequences of it, by wearing the free winter clothes provided to all starting characters).

On the other hand, saying "the problem isn't there in the first place and there was no two-years long sunless winter, just a worse than usual winter and the sun is just late reappearing after the regular two-month long night" or "my players or most players will gloss over it, yours should too" is not something that addresses the problem, it is either ignoring the problem or fixing it stealthily by changing the premise to fit the depicted adventure.

Those wishing to improve the module by exploring the consequences of a winter apocalypse (with true horror elements... "what if the sacrifices to Auril where rational things to do and actually saved lives? Would the character act to stop them?" "what about cannibalism, let's put some in the dale as obviously you wouldn't just bury hanged criminals when they are apparently 125,000 calories of free food [I learnt that reading this very forum] and could be put to use in really desperate times? what would the characters say?" "what are the priest doing? Are they creating food as much as they can to relieve the population and if they aren't... why?" Many path of improving the module by respecting the premise of the horror story open up if you acknowledge that there is a disconnect between the setup (two year of sunless winter) and the adventure module as written (a harsh winter).

I don't see how "just gloss over the problem and enjoy the adventure as written as apparently many have done judging by the online reviews" is MORE CREATIVE and therefore more useful to anyone than acknowledging the problem which allows reflection on how to introduce elements that could benefit some groups (even if it's not yours or the majority's group).

I agree that the problem with the tree surviving discussed upthread was minor, but if this discussion hadn't taken place, I for one would probably have stayed on my mind image of the Icewind Dale (pre-Auril's intervention) as mid-Northern Alberta, not Baffin Island-like, which changes description of the environment completely...

I don’t think it does describe a regular winter... I think it’s a society on social and logistical collapse. If you read back you’ll see that I made clear that I saw no problem fixing the question of two year winter... I even compiled a list of a dozen methods this could be done to make it clearer for groups to whom such things matter.

My discussion of the reviews was a direct response to the claim that the book wasn’t worth its $50 price tag because the writers chose not to elaborate about the tree husbandry in their already length tome. The ratings suggest this particular claim is extreme.

Im more than happy to discuss improving the book. Or adding extra horror elements, I suggested adding cannibalism myself. Such things would be best placed in a running Rime thread or Improving Rime. As I have said previously an “I’m going to rant about Rime” thread is always gonna get people’s backs up.

 

[Fenris-77]

It's not a competition. It doesn't need to be more or less anything, it's about DM preference. I prefer not to worry about small inconsistencies because in my experience they play out fine anyway. I usually run a play to find out style, so if the players want to find out they can, and how that might work will emerge out of the fiction. I don't run out huge amounts of background prep for the same reason. Other DMs might prefer to have this reasoned out in advance, but that's no more or less creative or useful or appropriate than my approach.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If a poster is looking for a place where they can complain about something over some length of time alongside a bunch of other people that agree with them...

...I'd submit an open and public message board isn't the best place. Unless of course you choose to block every single other poster who doesn't agree with you. Which is fine of course... but you do that enough times and pretty soon you start to wonder why all the other threads seem awfully barren too when you've pretty much have blocked 85%of the other posters here.