3 is a bit low.
Giant Flying Chicken Dinosaur
Big Lizard Doggie
King Kong
Turtle
ok, Turtle is less than friendly.
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D&D 5E Problems with Polymorph, True Polymorph, and Shapechange
- Thread starter Hawk Diesel
- Start date
Giant Flying Chicken Dinosaur
Big Lizard Doggie
King Kong
Turtle
ok, Turtle is less than friendly.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Alright, I think I have something viable for a revised Polymorph spell. It maintains a lot of the options available via the Monster Manual. The spell is a bit longer and more complex than most spell write-ups, but it has the benefit of being self-contained and not requiring anything outside of the spell description. I know it doesn't add some of the bells and whistles of some forms such as Stomp, Blood Frenzy, Web, ect, nor does mine come with the ridiculous number of hit points of the original. But I tried to address this by slightly increasing damage of the Battle Form, and through the additional utility of the Stealth Form. The spell is also able to be upcast.
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a caterpillar cocoon)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw.
When you cast this spell, you decide whether the target take on a Battle Form, Stealth Form, or Baleful Form, each of which is described below. You can determine the physical appearance of the form taken. The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. While in this form the target can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands, speech, or activates equipment.
Battle Form. While transformed, the target gains the following benefits:
• The target gains 25 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
• The target grows to Large or Huge size, unless they are already larger.
• The target’s movement speed increases to 40 ft, unless they already have a faster movement speed.
• The target loses any additional movement speeds. Instead they can choose one of the following secondary movement speeds: climb 40 ft, or a swim 60 ft. If the target is granted a swim speed, they can breathe both air and water.
• The target loses their normal attack options. Instead, the target gains a melee attack and a ranged attack. When the target takes the Attack action, they can either make up to 2 melee attacks, or a single ranged attack. Both the melee and ranged attack uses your spell attack bonus. The melee attack has a 10 ft. reach and deals 3d12 + your spellcasting modifier. The ranged attack has a range of 50/100 ft., and deals 8d6 + your spellcasting modifier. When you first cast this spell you choose whether the attacks deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.
• When the target takes the Attack action, they can make two attacks instead of one.
Stealth Form. While transformed, the target gains the following benefits:
• The target shrinks to Small or Tiny size, unless they are already smaller.
• The target’s movement speed increases to 60 ft., unless they already have a faster movement speed.
• The target loses any additional movement speeds. Instead they can choose one of the following secondary movement speeds: climb 40 ft, or a swim 60 ft., fly 60 ft., or burrow 15 ft. If the target is granted a swim speed, they can breathe both air and water.
• The target gains darkvision 60 ft. unless their darkvision is better, as well as blindsight 60ft. The target’s blindsight does not function while deafened.
• The target gains a +10 to Perception and Stealth checks.
• The target cannot take the Attack action.
Baleful Form. While transformed, the target changes in the following ways:
• The target shrinks to Tiny size, unless they are already smaller.
• The target’s speed is reduced to 10 ft., and loses any secondary movement modes.
• The target cannot take the Attack action.
• If the target takes damage, they can attempt a new Wisdom saving throw with advantage, ending the spell on a success.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the temporary hit points granted by the battle form increases by 10 and the damage dealt by the battle form increases by one damage die for every two slot levels above the 4th.
Polymorph
4th-level transmutationCasting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a caterpillar cocoon)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
This spell transforms a creature that you can see within range into a new form. An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw.
When you cast this spell, you decide whether the target take on a Battle Form, Stealth Form, or Baleful Form, each of which is described below. You can determine the physical appearance of the form taken. The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. While in this form the target can’t speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands, speech, or activates equipment.
Battle Form. While transformed, the target gains the following benefits:
• The target gains 25 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
• The target grows to Large or Huge size, unless they are already larger.
• The target’s movement speed increases to 40 ft, unless they already have a faster movement speed.
• The target loses any additional movement speeds. Instead they can choose one of the following secondary movement speeds: climb 40 ft, or a swim 60 ft. If the target is granted a swim speed, they can breathe both air and water.
• The target loses their normal attack options. Instead, the target gains a melee attack and a ranged attack. When the target takes the Attack action, they can either make up to 2 melee attacks, or a single ranged attack. Both the melee and ranged attack uses your spell attack bonus. The melee attack has a 10 ft. reach and deals 3d12 + your spellcasting modifier. The ranged attack has a range of 50/100 ft., and deals 8d6 + your spellcasting modifier. When you first cast this spell you choose whether the attacks deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage.
• When the target takes the Attack action, they can make two attacks instead of one.
Stealth Form. While transformed, the target gains the following benefits:
• The target shrinks to Small or Tiny size, unless they are already smaller.
• The target’s movement speed increases to 60 ft., unless they already have a faster movement speed.
• The target loses any additional movement speeds. Instead they can choose one of the following secondary movement speeds: climb 40 ft, or a swim 60 ft., fly 60 ft., or burrow 15 ft. If the target is granted a swim speed, they can breathe both air and water.
• The target gains darkvision 60 ft. unless their darkvision is better, as well as blindsight 60ft. The target’s blindsight does not function while deafened.
• The target gains a +10 to Perception and Stealth checks.
• The target cannot take the Attack action.
Baleful Form. While transformed, the target changes in the following ways:
• The target shrinks to Tiny size, unless they are already smaller.
• The target’s speed is reduced to 10 ft., and loses any secondary movement modes.
• The target cannot take the Attack action.
• If the target takes damage, they can attempt a new Wisdom saving throw with advantage, ending the spell on a success.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the temporary hit points granted by the battle form increases by 10 and the damage dealt by the battle form increases by one damage die for every two slot levels above the 4th.
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Xeviat
Hero
How did you come to these damage numbers? Shadow Blade cast as a 4th level spell only deals 3d8 + Str or Dex damage, and yours can be used twice. Your melee damage is 19.5 and your ranged damage is 28 by the way, so waaaay higher for ranged.
I like the theory. I think the damage numbers are off. A single casting of a 4th level spell should be doing "around" 6d10 to one target (save half) or 7d6 to multiple targets (save half), increased by 25% since you have an attack roll for no damage (so around 41.3 for single target, or 30.6 for multi target).
How many rounds are we assuming it gets to be up for? Temp HP instead of replacing HP means the polymorphed target will probably not stay up as long. You could also always lose concentration, so it's really hard to say. 2 rounds is probably a safe bet.
Shadow Blade at 3d8 + Spell mod damage (being nice to it) as a 4th level spell is 18.5 damage, but it is a bonus action. Polymorph is also going to cost your action and then the actions of your target (whether that's you or the fighter), so that has to be taken into account.
Oh, this analysis is more complex than I was assuming.
So where did you pull the damage numbers from?
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
I came to these numbers by comparing the damage from the 3 most combat optimal forms granted by the original polymorph spell: the Mammoth, Giant Ape, and T-Rex. Mammoth and Giant Ape are available as soon as you get access to the original polymorph, and you have to wait a level to get T-Rex (which btw is another thing I hate about the spell. It, with shapechange, true polymorph, and mass polymorph are the ONLY spells that rely on character level rather than the level of the spell slot used). In the end, I decided on using the Giant Ape as the base for damage, but increased it slightly to compensate for the lack of abilities like Trampling Charge or the T-Rex's restraining bite. The ranged damage should probably be lowered, since unlike for a giant ape it doesn't require boulders to be around (though also to be fair the ape's ability to throw rocks doesn't list any ammunition requirement). Another option could be to allow 2 melee attacks or 1 ranged attack and have the battle form contain both options rather than having to pick. I missed on my first pass that a giant ape's multiattack is limited to 2 slams, so it gets only one rock throw.
Also keep in mind that shadow blade doesn't prohibit the user from speaking, using spells, or activating equipment.
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Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Updated the spell to provide the Battle Form both the melee and ranged option, but that only the melee attack can be used twice when taking the attack action. Also included that granting a swim speed also grants the ability to breathe air or water.
I'd honestly be less generic.
Pick some concrete forms. If people want to reskin, they can. But the concreteness of the form might inspire additional mechanics.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
I did create some concrete forms. The primary way this spell is used is for combat, exploration/utility, or to incapacitate a single enemy. I just distilled it down into these basic components. I don't think anything more is really necessary. But that's just me.
Concrete as in "you are a giant ape".
Abstract as in "battle form".
Instead of 3 abstract forms, you could have 3 concrete forms. This could inspire additional mechanics that aren't abstract.
It might take 6 to handle the two movement mode options. But having an aquatic battle form (killer whale?), a land battle form (giant ape), a water exploration (octopus), an air exploration (owl), a land exploration (mouse), etc isn't much more words, and because the forms are concrete they are less generic.
Hawk Diesel
Adventurer
Because then it not only adds complexity, but the need to create additional spells for every imaginable creature type. The original Polymorph is already among one of the most complicated spells due to its reliance on the Monster Manual and any other officially released beast. My version allows the spell to be self-contained. Additionally, with a spell called Polymorph I wouldn't imagine it to be limited in terms of kinds of creatures one could assume. In fact, there's nothing inherent about a spell called Polymorph that would indicate for it to be limited to changing into only beasts. Which tells me the designers understood the balance issues a spell like Polymorph could cause if they opened it up to any creature type.
So I believe my version is the most parsimonious way to achieve the effect of changing a creature's form towards a desired purpose, eliminating the spell's reliance on the monster manual, standardizing the spell capacities to make it easy to balance compared to similar-level spells, while also giving the player character wide leeway to determine what that form looks like.
Perhaps other players might want a separate spell for each possible creature type or every possible iteration of a combination of mechanics (which we already arbitrarily assign to the creatures they are meant to represent. I mean, what about a skeleton's stat block makes it inherently a skeleton and not a wild boar or baby drake?). And for those players, more power to them. But that's not really my design goal and doesn't solve the problems I see as I've tried to define them.
But you aren't transforming into multiple creatures with your spell.
You are transforming into 3-6 kinds, plus basically a cosmetic illusion.
You fundamentally aren't a wolf, trex, octopus, mammoth, etc. Saying "but you can look like one" doesn't make you one.
If there was vague words like "and you have the physical capabilities of the form you assume" then you'd be that form, but that just punts the effort from a MM entry to the DM.
You are transforming into 3-6 kinds, plus basically a cosmetic illusion.
You fundamentally aren't a wolf, trex, octopus, mammoth, etc. Saying "but you can look like one" doesn't make you one.
If there was vague words like "and you have the physical capabilities of the form you assume" then you'd be that form, but that just punts the effort from a MM entry to the DM.
