D&D 5E Odd things in the rules that bug you?

[Ace]

I'll ignore the game benefits of this and note that Medieval Europe which inspires a lot of gaming did have guild fixed prices for many goods and services and even other cultures like Feudal japan and Ancient Rome had a fixed assumed value for say a measure of rice or a loaf of bread.

Now some dodgy trader, general goods merchant or sutler might have different prices but all in all, X is worth Y currency in most cases is reasonable.

 

[Ace]

The idea of price lists.

Modern-day transportation haven't even equalized the prices of many goods within a large country, yet goods are supposed to have fixed value in a fantasy universe. Most settings provide prices for setting-specific services but very few revisit the base list; I understand it's nothing important as PCs will very quickly have enough money to afford whatever is on a price list, but it's strange that there is even expectation of a fixed price for a piece of armor, while in most settings it would be made to order (maybe eberron has weapon factories but still...). And that the price will be the same everywhere, with a fixedness so strong that you can have spell with a requirement of /value/ for some components...

I'll ignore the game benefits of this and note that Medieval Europe which inspires a lot of gaming did have guild fixed prices for many goods and services and even other cultures like Feudal japan and Ancient Rome had a fixed assumed value for say a measure of rice or a loaf of bread.

Now some dodgy trader, general goods merchant or sutler might have different prices but all in all, X is worth Y currency in most cases is reasonable.

 

[tetrasodium]

The idea of price lists.

Modern-day transportation haven't even equalized the prices of many goods within a large country, yet goods are supposed to have fixed value in a fantasy universe. Most settings provide prices for setting-specific services but very few revisit the base list; I understand it's nothing important as PCs will very quickly have enough money to afford whatever is on a price list, but it's strange that there is even expectation of a fixed price for a piece of armor, while in most settings it would be made to order (maybe eberron has weapon factories but still...). And that the price will be the same everywhere, with a fixedness so strong that you can have spell with a requirement of /value/ for some components...

the dragonmark houses in eberron either make things themselves or license qualified third parties to make & sell things at or around a quality & price set by the house. In a setting like darksun the price of many things would be tiny or stratospheric & they have a unique coinage/price list to go with it with this quickly summarizing it.

As to modern day fixed pricing not being a thing, we absolutely do

 

[Lanefan]

The idea of price lists.

Modern-day transportation haven't even equalized the prices of many goods within a large country, yet goods are supposed to have fixed value in a fantasy universe. Most settings provide prices for setting-specific services but very few revisit the base list; I understand it's nothing important as PCs will very quickly have enough money to afford whatever is on a price list,

The problem is not that they become able to afford something on a price list, it's that they become able to afford large enough quantities of it to make buying low in one place and selling high in another a very profitable enterprise. And so, given the opportunity, instead of adventuring that's quite logically what many characters would do. Sure, it might not be quite as profitable as adventuring but it's definitely a whole lot safer; and the money still rolls in.

I don't want to DM this. Do you?

Fixed pricing is your friend.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

The problem is not that they become able to afford something on a price list, it's that they become able to afford large enough quantities of it to make buying low in one place and selling high in another a very profitable enterprise. And so, given the opportunity, instead of adventuring that's quite logically what many characters would do. Sure, it might not be quite as profitable as adventuring but it's definitely a whole lot safer; and the money still rolls in.

I don't want to DM this. Do you?

Fixed pricing is your friend.

That depends. I found Marco Polo like story a good adventure hook: create and secure a trade route for silk, which makes no sense if silk costs the same at both end of the trade route. But I am just being silly here: it's not something I'd DM each and every campaign as the adventurers quit adventuring to become merchants. That's why I have moved toward a more abstract wealth rules and the reason I find price lists "an odd things that (slightly) bugs me". I can see guideline for magic items, for extraordinary help... but when was the last time you charged advetnurers for a mug of ale (4cp) and a hunk of cheese (1sp) and had it being a meaningful part of the story? I much prefer abstracting these expanses, as suggested by the "lifestyle" rules. It also prevents questions from players like "if a hunk of cheese is 1sp, and you can hire an unskilled laborer for 2sp/day, an unskilled worker can afford 2 hunks a day. So basically, an unskilled laborer family is always having starving children and defaulting on its rent and taxes?". Abstract prices is your friend (as most DMs I guess don't want to simulate an economy).

WRT to the argument above regarding fixed pricing in the real world, it doesn't apply : manufacturers' recommanded pricing is the recommanded price for a single model of a single brand. There is no price for microwave oven or car, but for a specific model at most, and not not for "a bespoke suit" or "a diamond". And certainly not for commodities (as fluctuation on markets tend to show, there is no standard price for rice or wheat even today), and in the past fluctuation in the price of bread caused revolutions, so basically fixed pricing didn't work. Local guilds could enforce standard and pricing, but a local level. Even in Eberron, there are domain where it wouldn't apply. Especially agricultural commodities, as dragonmarked houses are forbidden to own land.

 

[tetrasodium]

That depends. I found Marco Polo like story a good adventure hook: create and secure a trade route for silk, which makes no sense if silk costs the same at both end of the trade route. But I am just being silly here: it's not something I'd DM each and every campaign as the adventurers quit adventuring to become merchants. That's why I have moved toward a more abstract wealth rules and the reason I find price lists "an odd things that (slightly) bugs me". I can see guideline for magic items, for extraordinary help... but when was the last time you charged advetnurers for a mug of ale (4cp) and a hunk of cheese (1sp) and had it being a meaningful part of the story? I much prefer abstracting these expanses, as suggested by the "lifestyle" rules.

WRT to the argument above regarding fixed pricing in the real world, it doesn't apply : manufacturers' recommanded pricing is the recommanded price for a single model of a single brand. There is no price for microwave oven or car, but for a specific model at most, and not not for "a bespoke suit" or "a diamond". And certainly not for commodities (as fluctuation on markets tend to show, there is no standard price for rice or wheat even today), and in the past fluctuation in the price of bread caused revolutions, so basically fixed pricing didn't work. Local guilds could enforce standard and pricing, but a local level. Even in Eberron, there are domain where it wouldn't apply. Especially agricultural commodities, as dragonmarked houses are forbidden to own land.

Fluctuating prices due to the source being local or distant & whatnot is a rabbit hole that could be endlessly complex to the point that it becomes more work to find the right list than to just make a new one. an overall price list for baselines of the 3ish settings however would go a long way towards making using different coinage systems feel viscerally different once both items & prices are different from list to list. Unfortunately 5e doesn't really have enough designspace depth in equipment to do more than change the names on identical items.

 

[Lanefan]

That depends. I found Marco Polo like story a good adventure hook: create and secure a trade route for silk, which makes no sense if silk costs the same at both end of the trade route.

If I'm those adventurers and I've got some extra money, once I've created that trade route I buy out or force out all the silk traders and take over the operation myself. Easy money for me. Pain in the ass for my DM.

But I am just being silly here: it's not something I'd DM each and every campaign as the adventurers quit adventuring to become merchants. That's why I have moved toward a more abstract wealth rules and the reason I find price lists "an odd things that (slightly) bugs me". I can see guideline for magic items, for extraordinary help... but when was the last time you charged advetnurers for a mug of ale (4cp) and a hunk of cheese (1sp) and had it being a meaningful part of the story?

At very low level, or in a not-wealthy campaign, these things can become highly relevant.

As for magic items - if there weren't fixed price lists buy-low sell-high would quickly become the whole game at some tables (likely including mine), and I've no desire to DM this. So, fixed prices it is: a concession against realism that I - usually a fairly staunch realist - am quite happy to make.

I much prefer abstracting these expanses, as suggested by the "lifestyle" rules. It also prevents questions from players like "if a hunk of cheese is 1sp, and you can hire an unskilled laborer for 2sp/day, an unskilled worker can afford 2 hunks a day. So basically, an unskilled laborer family is always having starving children and defaulting on its rent and taxes?". Abstract prices is your friend (as most DMs I guess don't want to simulate an economy).

All that says is that this wasn't thought through in design to any great degree, meaning that (as has often been the case through D&D's history) the DM is on her own to come up with better numbers.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The problem is not that they become able to afford something on a price list, it's that they become able to afford large enough quantities of it to make buying low in one place and selling high in another a very profitable enterprise. And so, given the opportunity, instead of adventuring that's quite logically what many characters would do. Sure, it might not be quite as profitable as adventuring but it's definitely a whole lot safer; and the money still rolls in.

I don't want to DM this. Do you?

Fixed pricing is your friend.

wait....you have players who would stop adventuring to buy and sell trade goods? Really?

 

[Oofta]

The problem is not that they become able to afford something on a price list, it's that they become able to afford large enough quantities of it to make buying low in one place and selling high in another a very profitable enterprise. And so, given the opportunity, instead of adventuring that's quite logically what many characters would do. Sure, it might not be quite as profitable as adventuring but it's definitely a whole lot safer; and the money still rolls in.

I don't want to DM this. Do you?

Fixed pricing is your friend.

This is why I simply hand-wave this kind of stuff and assume that all profits (other than potentially living costs) are all sunk back into keeping the business afloat.

The other thing is for people that want to make money crafting is that you can't just set up a business anywhere. There are guilds to deal with, regulations, competing business. Add in the fact that adventurers are notorious for wanting to drop everything and run off to chase after something shiny on a whim.

There are so many other obstacles, basically if it was that easy to turn a profit why isn't someone else doing it? There are contracts, transportation costs, getting a reliable supplier, a reliable purchaser. It's not like they can just pick up a ton of spices and call up UPS to have guaranteed delivery. If anyone really wants, they can always retire their PC to get into the import/export business. Good luck with that, they're now an NPC. Maybe you'll run into them again when they need to hire some old buddies because all their ships have been the victim of piracy.

P.S. If the PCs can set up a teleportation circle for supply routes (or similar) it would have already been done. PCs and "evil wizards bent on taking over the world" are not the only ones who have access to magic in my campaigns.

 

[Zsong]

wait....you have players who would stop adventuring to buy and sell trade goods? Really?

Well the local tradepost is projecting an increase in demand for furs this winter. The oracle says it will be a cold winter. So stocks will rise if we invest now. And we can get a good return.

now personally if the oracle has already made this known I think it’s already factored into the price of the stock. And the adventurers that does invest will lose quite a few copper pieces. The market is overvalued earlier because of oracle speculation.

that’s just my humble opinion. I’ll just leave my gold in the Waukeen bank for the foreseeable future.