D&D 5E Boosting Sorcerers, Focus: Fun (+thread)

[doctorbadwolf]

So, firstly, I don’t care at all about anything resembling a “your premise is bad” responses. Don’t thread crap. This is a +thread for the purpose of delving into how to make the Sorcerer more fun, and thus isn’t especially a thread for people who don’t think the sorcerer needs a boost.

That said, I don’t think the sorcerer needs a power boost, as such. If it gets one along the way, that’s fine, but I think the issue with the sorcerer is more about the feel of play than about numerical balance.

So, what can be done that isn’t an overhaul? I’m not interested in rewriting classes or using big invasive changes, but rather in simple clean fixes.

What about more metamagics known?

Are any of the metamagics way more restrictive than they need to be?

Would partial SP recovery on a short rest help?

Your thoughts?

 

[Li Shenron]

I do agree with the premise.

I do not dislike the Sorcerer class. I don't even think it's technically underpowered, if I look at the numbers and compare for example a Sorcerer and a Wizard on a given day I don't see an advantage to the latter. That's why I am not so sure about boosting the Sorcerer's numbers for example refreshing spell points more often.

But I can't shrug off the background feeling that the Sorcerer is too constrained on the longer term, because of the very short known spells list. Thematically it's ok, that the Sorcerer has only a few innate powers, while the Wizard can expand her knowledge. Still, the feeling remains that a Wizard with enough spells can more or less "copy" a Sorcerer known list after a long rest and make the party Sorcerer feel like she's not so unique for the group.

But then, more spells known to the Sorcerer might only encourage the player to take spells outside the specific character theme, and become too general (as in, pick a divination here, a flight spell there, a teleport, a summon... then you tend too much towards swiss army knife spellcaster).

So I don't see much how rules could help without taking away the sorcerer uniqueness or something else. I vaguely think that a Sorcerer might better be based on a narrow theme such as "fire", "summoning fiends", "shadows", "divination" but then not be bound to specific spells like all other casters. The idea would be, "you have the magic of "fire" in you, effects limited by level of course, but you can shape it the way you want. The old 3ed "Elementalism" book by Mongoose could be of inspiration, but this would certainly be a MAJOR overhaul so it's way too much to call it a house rule. Perhaps LevelUp is onto something...

 

[Seramus]

I saw a sorcerer hack that wasn't balanced, but was incredibly interesting. Essentially there were no metamagic points, but you spend 2 actions in a row (concentration) to apply any one metamagic you know to a spell you cast.

So, you start casting heightened fireball. You maintain concentration until next round, and use your second action to finish casting the spell.

You can cast normally if you want, just no metamagic. But you can metamagic as many spells as you can cast, if you take the time.

 

[Vael]

I've advocated leaning into what makes Sorcerers unique (in 5e), metamagic. I think they should get more metamagic options, and some more niche/weird ones that what's currently on offer. I don't mind a slight buff to spells known, because Sorcerer progression is ... tight, but I don't agree with giving them lots of bonus spells.

So, on the Metamagic front, 2 ideas for boosting progression:
1. Give a bonus metamagic at each level the Sorcerer gets more metamagic, so 2 at 3rd level, plus 2 at 10th and 2 more at 17th, for a total of 6.
2. OR, additional metamagics at levels 7 and 13, boosting the class to 6.

As for other metamagics, some ideas:
Echo Spell - When casting a spell with a casting time of 1 action, spend Sorcery Points equal to its level + 2. Cast the same spell again at the start of your next turn without expending a spell slot or an action. You may choose different targets or area of effect.
Admixture Spell - Choose 2 different damage types when you learn this metamagic. Whenever you cast a spell that deals either type of damage, you can spend a Sorcery Point to have it deal both types of damage. A target damaged by this spell is immune to the damage only if it is immune to both, resistent to the damage if it resists one and is either resistent or immune to the other and it is vulnerable if it is vulnerable to either damage type. Otherwise, the target takes normal damage.

The other major thing Sorcerers need is spells unique to their spell list. They, to my knowledge, still have no unique spells.

 

[Horwath]

SP recharge on short rest.

in 3.5e sorcerers had more spell slots than wizard in exchange for less spells known.

Now all spellcasters are semi-spontaneous casters, but rangers end up with fewest spells known(of full casters).
I Know that they will not get more spell slots directly as all casters are put on same spell slot advancement.

But sorceres should get more chance/more resources to recharge those slots.

 

[Minigiant]

There was a time where I wished the Sorcerer's gimmick were called Sorceries and getting a Metamagic was a type of sorcery.

This was you can lean on the "sorcerer has magic blood, runes in their DNA, or marks on their soul" and do more than alter spells.

Stuff like pushing their sorcerous energy into a weapon and muscles to convert sorcery points straight to damage. Or pumping it into the brain to get a chance to temporarily know a skill or a spell. Or dumping into the soul to keep a dying or dead one from moving on to the next life

 

[BacchusNL]

I'd start by giving some base-line metamagic options to all sorcerer's at level 2. Level 2 sorc feels SO bad when all you can do with it is make 1 more level 1 slot.

 

[tetrasodium]

The problem is in the 5e spells themselves. Damage is too tightly tuned to an absurd white room no feats no magic items average almost nobody uses while concentration is massively overused. The magic items in tasha's help but are about five years too late so arcane casters like sorcerer still face the problem of few if any meaningful or interesting feat choices alongside adventure design from wotc that is relatively hostile to their needs and wants during a campaign. Fixing any of those is a largely nontrivial change.

 

[TwoSix]

But then, more spells known to the Sorcerer might only encourage the player to take spells outside the specific character theme, and become too general (as in, pick a divination here, a flight spell there, a teleport, a summon... then you tend too much towards swiss army knife spellcaster).

I'd cautiously disagree with that. I think the overall concept of the sorcerer pushes you to pick a themed package of spells, but the limitation in the number of spells known means that you generally want to make sure you have all the major power bases covered first, and there isn't a ton of room to make frivolous picks. Most sorcerers I see have some blend of magic missile, shield, mirror image, fireball, counterspell, and haste right off the bat, possibly swapping some for some of the stronger cleric spells if the sorcerer is a divine soul.

In my ideal world, each sorcerer subclass would have a dedicated small spell list they could cast from freely, much like the 3.5 beguiler, and then get a few extra picks like bardic Magical Secrets. Barring that, I think the class needs some incentivization to gain thematic but not top-tier spells to generate more variety.

 

[DEFCON 1]

My thoughts on the sorcerer class in 5E has always come down to just a couple things:

1) Every sorcerer PC should have their own specific spell list crafted by the DM based upon the Origin or theme. Spells should come from across all the class lists to craft the most applicable spell list for the sorcerer, but only maybe 8-12 spells per spell level. The reason for this of course being that you remove from all sorcerers the exact same spells that appear on every list and invariably get chosen and cast all the time regardless of Origin or theme. It does not good to have a "Storm Sorcerer" that throws fireball after fireball because fireball is the best 3rd level spell in the game.

2) Every single metamagic is available to the sorcerer. None of this "choose two" crap. The whole point of having a sorcerer (and metamagic) is that because they are infused with magic and can create it spontaneously, they can change it in ways other spellcasters can't. So for my money, that means they should be changing it almost every round, and changing it in all kinds of different ways depending on the circumstance they find themselves in.

There's nothing I find stupider than a sorcerer and their party finding themselves in a situation where having (for instance) Distant Spell would be the most perfect thing to have at this moment in time (perhaps to nail a fleeing foe or something)... but of course not actually having that available because no one ever takes Distant Spell as one of their extremely small amount of options. Because of course it normally just isn't worth it to have (as there are other metamagics that are much more useful in more situations.) If we ever want to see these metamagics that are really useful in very narrow situations get used... let sorcerers use them. Give them the whole list to choose from. It's the Sorcery Points that are going to be constraining them anyway, not the number of metamagics.

3) As I do believe sorcerers should pretty much be using metamagic on almost every spell they cast (since that is what defines them as a sorcerous spellcaster rather than any other spellcaster)... I also believe sorcery points should refresh on a short rest. Now if this seems like it could become overkill at higher levels when the sorcerer does in fact have a lot of points... let us not forget that this point should be going hand-in-hand with Point 1... where the sorcerer should have a constrained thematic spell list. So it is up to the DM to curate said spell list such that its not the exact same three spells buffed with the exact same metamagic each and every round over and over and over because those three options are the best of the best of the best.

If the DM does their job, they will make sure that a sorcerer with a large sorcery pool, every metamagic available at their fingertips, and a smaller, select group of available spells will still be able to be kept in check. Is it asking a lot of a particular DM? Sure. Perhaps. But if that DM is really annoyed with how the sorcerer plays currently, they should be able to specify that annoyance and be able articulate the proper way to ameliorate it. Or at least should be willing to learn HOW to ameliorate it and put their attempts into practice.

There's very few things more irritating than someone constantly complaining about rules they don't like or don't think works... but do absolutely nothing to try and fix it for themselves at their table. Instead they just come here onto ENWorld making the exact same complaints that WotC isn't "fixing things" for years on end.