D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[Sacrosanct]

@Warpiglet-7 , you're not alone at all. I feel much the same way. I really do like 5e, but I think one of the bigger issues I have with it is the style of play it fosters and encourages due to mechanics. That being, every battle seems like you're going into it with full or near full resources. If resources are low, players will do anything in order to find a long rest somewhere (since you get everything back, including all hit points), even at the cost of the story (let's say you're on a timeline for instance). I don't blame the players, because the game seems to reward that.

Contrast that to my experience playing AD&D, and players were much more cautious about blowing through their class resources because they never knew how many battles they'd have to fight before getting a chance to rest. and when you did rest, you didn't heal everything back. That put even more strategy in the hands of clerics and druids, because their healing magic became that much more important, so they had to factor that in when preparing spells.

that sense of caution seems to be missing in 5e. I see a LOT more Leroy Jenkins with 5e.**

"It's hard to die, and I'll blow all my resources because I know I'll get some back on a short rest which is pretty easy to come by."


*I fully know that as a DM, I can just throw more monsters at them. That's not a good solution for a few reasons. For one, I'm not always the DM so I have no control over how many encounters they face between rests, and I don't have the opportunity to play cautious when other players just wade right in because the rules don't punish that. Also, when I am the DM, that's a fake solution. It feels artificial, and oftentimes doesn't align with what's going on in the living world. "Just more monsters" is more often than not a poor solution to try to replace the overall mechanics of the extremely more forgiving 5e ruleset.

The bottom line for me, is that after the campaign is over and I reflect back, it just doesn't feel as heroic when you really didn't risk all that much or were any real danger of permanently dying. the campaigns I remember the most fondly are those where you were surviving for a long time on a razor's edge, and overcame really tough odds. Not just for one battle, but for an entire session or for most of the adventure.

**And I see a lot more reliance on PC powers in 5e. In 1e, players placed more emphasis on utilizing your environment around you--something every PC could do regardless of class ability. Burning oil, torches, setting up traps, etc. And they made a difference in the battle and you didn't have to burn a spell or magic item doing so. In 5e, class abilities are so potent that almost no one looks to utilizing their environment in the battle any more. A monster getting hit with burning oil barely feels it in 5e. Of course this is just my observation.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

*I fully know that as a DM, I can just throw more monsters at them. That's not a good solution for a few reasons. For one, I'm not always the DM so I have no control over how many encounters they face between rests, and I don't have the opportunity to play cautious when other players just wade right in because the rules don't punish that. Also, when I am the DM, that's a fake solution. It feels artificial, and oftentimes doesn't align with what's going on in the living world. "Just more monsters" is more often than not a poor solution to try to replace the overall mechanics of the extremely more forgiving 5e ruleset.

It appears you share DMing duties at your table... is that right? Seems like the DMs should get together to agree upon what's an appropriate number (or range) of encounters between rests in the context of the storyline. End of session does not need to mean automatic long rest either - as seems to be the case in some groups.

By the way, "Infinite dragons" is code for "throw more challenges at the players" which is distinctly different from "MOAR MONSTERS!" I suppose that brings us back to your issue of not having full control over the number of encounters per adventuring day. But that, IMO, is a solvable problem with some collaboration between the DMs.

 

[Oofta]

I never quite understand the "get a long rest whenever they want". First this has been an issue since, well, forever. It's not like it's a new phenomenon. It's also really easy to counter. I use the alternate rest rules for pacing but I still basically have doom clocks, investigations and leads that might grow cold, resting in enemy territory is dangerous even (or perhaps especially) if you throw up a hut. All of it is under the DM's control ... or at least setting up situations where the PCs face significant negative consequences to just calling it quits for the day.

I remember playing a 2E computer game (Pool of Radiance I think) which had a handy "rest until healed" button. Basically it would rest, cast healing spells, rinse and repeat until everyone was full. I even did it while climbing a tower that was theoretically collapsing - you just had to try it enough times that you weren't interrupted by rocks falling.

So ... nothing new. Maybe new for certain people, but nothing new in my experience in any game I've ever played whether in real life or on a computer.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Another difference I find from old-school (1e/2e) and 5e is the amount of, and powers offered by, magic items.

In old-school games every character would have a large section of their character sheet listing the 40+ magic items their character had on their person. Whenever the PCs would end up in a strange situation that wasn't easily bypassed you would begin playing the "Look over all the useless trinkets on your character sheet and find the one that will help" subgame. This is when you would remind yourself you got that Potion of Wolf Summoning off the dead vampire and the Earrings of Ixixatchil (sp?) Form from that stupid underwater encounter.

Contrast this to 5e, where my 10th level cleric literally has ZERO magic items except a single basic healing potion on his belt (we all have one handy for use if we get KOed and the rescuer is out).

Contrast BOTH to 3e, the era where the party has a few floating Wands of CLW which were super cheap, disposable, and brought the party back to full health between every encounter as long as a single character were conscious who could use it.

I don't think one way is necessarily more or less dangerous than the other, but it IS a different in feel when playing one edition versus the next.

 

[jmartkdr2]

All I'm saying is that Mercer lets them use a healing potion as a bonus action. Which is insane.

It's a good houserule for large groups - it lets you do more on a turn, including something that will definitely work, which is a important if you're next turn won't come around for fifteen minutes or longer (common with 8 players and 7 monsters.)

 

[tetrasodium]

First of all, you're not alone. In many ways.

I cut my teeth on AD&D when I was in the Dungeons & Dragons club in junior high. I played a bunch of 2e in college, mainly Dark Sun, a setting so brutal it told you to make multiple characters so when your PCs died, a new one would be ready to go. That was before I moved over to WoD, Call of Cthulhu, and then CCGs. And then, life happened. I never played 3, 3.5, or 4. When I started getting back into the game, Pathfinder was putting out 2e and WOTC had 5e going strong. So I can understand the Rip van Winkle aspect of it.

5e characters are springy. They are Weebles. They will wobble but they won't fall down. To me, I see some broken game mechanics. The whole damage takes you down to 0 unless it would drop you to negative of your max HP (which is instant death) is a problem. It means that 1 hp and 41 hp are the same thing:

You have a character with 41 hp max.

1) You're at max 41 hp and take 41 damage. You're at 0 hp. You are unconscious and start rolling death saves.
2) You're at 1 hp and take 41 damage. You're at 0 hp. You are unconscious and start rolling death saves.

The other 40 hp doesn't count because the remaining damage doesn't equal your HP maximum.

That's a problem. Also, there is no negative hp. You just need 1 hp to stand back up. And if you roll a nat 20, you're at 1 hp. That's another problem.

Add to this the elimination of elimination of save-or-die. It's gone.

And on top of all of that, there's the change to resting. 5e players are cautious - in that they love to rest between encounters. You can spend a hit die to heal 1 hit die in a short rest or take a long rest for 8 hours and get back all of your hp.

There are other subtler problems. Ye Olde Majick Shoppe is gone. There's really no way to buy magic items in 5e. So now you have PCs running around with a ton of money because there is nothing to buy. Nothing to buy except for... healing potions. Which leads to another problem.

RAW, drinking a potion takes an action, not a bonus action. This sounds silly because that potion is a shot of liquid. It shouldn't take a full action using common sense. But if you house rule it to drink a potion as a bonus action, you break the game and make already springy characters nigh-invulnerable.

Of course, I'm probably wrong. But, that's the way I see it (through my Coke bottle nerdlinger glasses).

This is a really good set of points I almost entirely agree on, but the "elimination of (what were rare) SoD effects" is IMO a distant second to the effective removal & neutering of Save or Suck & Save or Lose effects because you could roll those out more commonly while the e equivalents tend to be save every round or self nullifying after a rest at worst. The overconfidence blasting any thoughts of planning teamwork & so on out of player thoughts is a huge problem because

 

[Don Durito]

Save or suck isn't really gone. Fear effects are definitely still around and still deeply annoying.

In my last session the villain pulled out some Dust of Coughing and Sneezing and made everyone on the battlefield (including himself) make a Con save or be incapicitated.

What there isn't is meaningful penalties that last beyond one combat other then exhaustion.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Save or suck isn't really gone. Fear effects are definitely still around and still deeply annoying.

In my last session the villain pulled out some Dust of Coughing and Sneezing and made everyone on the battlefield (including himself) make a Con save or be incapicitated.

What there isn't is meaningful penalties that last beyond one combat other then exhaustion.

And disease, curses, madness...

 

[tetrasodium]

And disease, curses, madness...

Yes there are a few save or suck effects still in place, but the vast majority of them are self nullifying.

Remember how terrifying wraiths were?... Not only is it dramatically harder for the wraith to hit, it now damages max hp instead of con (nearly any character capable of surviving more than on or two hits has more hp than con & it doesn't affect the save) but it also clears before the hangover from drinking that keg of vodka before starting that long rest last night

so many other Save or suck & save or lose effects are just nowhere near enough to even make a party of leroy jenkins so much as hesitate

 

[Oofta]

Yes there are a few save or suck effects still in place, but the vast majority of them are self nullifying.

View attachment 129606

Remember how terrifying wraiths were?... Not only is it dramatically harder for the wraith to hit, it now damages max hp instead of con (nearly any character capable of surviving more than on or two hits has more hp than con & it doesn't affect the save) but it also clears before the hangover from drinking that keg of vodka before starting that long rest last night
View attachment 129608
so many other Save or suck & save or lose effects are just nowhere near enough to even make a party of leroy jenkins so much as hesitate

Good thing you aren't limited to the rules if it's what you and your players want.

The rules are the starting point, not the be-all end-all. They work well enough for most people, but if you want long lasting penalties add them. I don't want long term penalties often, but when I do they're custom designed for the story and my players get a big kick out of them.