D&D General DM with too High Expectations - Advice?

[Maxperson]

Everyone? No. The majority? Unless your claim is that all the complaints that appear in every medium where GM's talk about bad players are somehow outliers, I'm pretty comfortable saying "yes".

You're "yes" is a massive Strawman, though. While there are a very few DMs who hold that position, the vast majority of those DMs on our side of things are against players who feel entitled to have anything they want(they aren't) and those who after asking, won't accept the DM's ultimate judgement if the DM says no, which is another form of entitled player. We have said time and time again that we are not against the player asking for things and will try to work with the players whenever possible.

So you may be comfortable saying "yes," but you are wrong. The world isn't nearly filled with players who have, "been taught that any sort of push back on a GM's choices makes them "bad players"."

 

[Retreater]

Happy to tell everyone I shared the link to this thread with my wife, and she's reading this with great interest. Don't know if she'll come on and say hi or just keep lurking.
A development I wasn't aware of when I originally posted: the DM says he isn't interested in streaming their games. (Though his original conversation hinted that he was.) Don't know if that changes anything.
So thanks for all the constructive feedback given so far on this topic. I think it demonstrates how important this hobby is to all of us.

 

[Charlaquin]

Happy to tell everyone I shared the link to this thread with my wife, and she's reading this with great interest. Don't know if she'll come on and say hi or just keep lurking.

Awesome! I hope she’ll find it useful.

A development I wasn't aware of when I originally posted: the DM says he isn't interested in streaming their games. (Though his original conversation hinted that he was.) Don't know if that changes anything.

That definitely casts his actions in a different light, in my opinion. That makes me think he’s simply refusing to have a dialogue with the players on what ever everyone wants out of the game, rather than wanting to exploit the players for personal gain. Which is still a problem but not as egregious.

It’s hard to assess the situation only hearing about it from a player’s perspective, second hand. But if I assume he’s a reasonable guy who’s simply struggling with communicating and managing the group dynamic, my guess would be that he thinks his burnout is being caused by having to do a lot of work to entertain players who he perceives as not as not being as invested in the game as he is. But rather than expressing that frustration to the players and asking for their help, he’s trying to enforce greater investment, which is a bad way to go about addressing the issue.

I think what’s probably needed here is an open, honest discussion about what everyone wants out of the game, and a willingness from all parties to try to help the others achieve what they want out of it, to the extent that it’s reasonable to do so. Along with an openness to the possibility of restructuring the game - maybe a different DM, is what’s needed, or maybe everyone needs to recalibrate their expectations. They’ll all have to talk about it to find an agreeable solution.

Unfortunately, it seems like this DM is unwilling to have such a discussion, which makes it impossible to reach a mutually agreeable compromise. Unless he can be persuaded to hear the players out, I can’t imagine a situation where everyone will be happy with the game, in which case he may not be a good fit for the group going forward.

So thanks for all the constructive feedback given so far on this topic. I think it demonstrates how important this hobby is to all of us.

Indeed. Here’s hoping a solution can be found that satisfies everyone, or failing that, that the disagreement doesn’t damage any friendships.

 

[akr71]

Yep, just echoing what many others have already stated. Have a conversation with the DM - "we're not interested in streaming out game," etc.

Has your wife talked with the other players? Do they feel the same? The message would be loud and clear if all (or most) of the players just said "no," and find themselves a new game. Finding a DM to step into an established group is tough, but one of them could step up and take the reigns.

 

[Oofta]

I realized it was. But it still is an issue I've seen a lot and I think some people are either oblivious to, or, honestly, should be addressed about.



Then what was the point in responding? "I disagree" without further discussion is about as pointless a conversational element as you can get, short of personal attacks, and arguably more pointless than those. It goes nowhere.

So what conversation is there? You made a broad, unsubstantiated claim. One that can neither be proven nor disproven. One that's not really on topic. I disagree. I think it's a bit silly to make blanket statements with zero evidence and don't really see the point. So I said so.

Are there bad DMs? Absolutely. I've had a couple, left games because of it. Bad players? DMed and played with some. Difference is that a good DM can frequently deal with a bad player and even if the player ultimately leaves the group the game goes on. If the DM is bad, you can try to give them feedback but most of the time the only recourse is to leave the game and the game is over.

We've now established where we stand. I see nothing to add other than statements that basically come down to "I'm right" vs "No, I am" and eventually endless responses that boil down to "neener neener".

Want to start a separate thread on this issue? Go ahead. Maybe I'll even share a horror story or two. But hijack this thread which is dealing with a real world issue and not some hypothetical? Meh.

 

[prabe]

The world isn't.

I don't believe the world is full of players who've had various sorts of bad experiences with GMs. Nor do I believe the world is full of GMs who've had various sorts of bad experiences with players. I basically believe the world is full decent players and GMs who want to be better.

I do think there are players who've had bad experiences with GMs, and I believe there are GMs who've had bad experiences with players. I also think that on the Internet, the voices of those who've had those experiences get amplified somewhat.

OTOH, what @Thomas Shey is saying about people being taught not to rock the boat is correct for society in general. In school and work and in many families, lots of people learn not to make waves (are punished early and often for doing so). A player needn't have had a stereotypical dictatorial GM in order to have reached the conclusion that pushing back against the desires of the person running the table is bad. So, maybe society is full of people who've learned not to resist authority, and TRPG tables--existing in society--are full of players who've learned not to push back against the GM, as a specific example of a general principle.

I guess I'm not really arguing with either of you, here.

 

[Oofta]

I don't believe the world is full of players who've had various sorts of bad experiences with GMs. Nor do I believe the world is full of GMs who've had various sorts of bad experiences with players. I basically believe the world is full decent players and GMs who want to be better.

I do think there are players who've had bad experiences with GMs, and I believe there are GMs who've had bad experiences with players. I also think that on the Internet, the voices of those who've had those experiences get amplified somewhat.

OTOH, what @Thomas Shey is saying about people being taught not to rock the boat is correct for society in general. In school and work and in many families, lots of people learn not to make waves (are punished early and often for doing so). A player needn't have had a stereotypical dictatorial GM in order to have reached the conclusion that pushing back against the desires of the person running the table is bad. So, maybe society is full of people who've learned not to resist authority, and TRPG tables--existing in society--are full of players who've learned not to push back against the GM, as a specific example of a general principle.

I guess I'm not really arguing with either of you, here.

I think a lot is dependent on background and where you come from when it comes to cultural norms and whether you question the person in authority. Then again I started a whole thread on how I think there has to be someone who is the final rules arbiter.

I just think it's a separate thread, if it's even worth talking about more than has been discussed recently.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't believe the world is full of players who've had various sorts of bad experiences with GMs. Nor do I believe the world is full of GMs who've had various sorts of bad experiences with players. I basically believe the world is full decent players and GMs who want to be better.

I do think there are players who've had bad experiences with GMs, and I believe there are GMs who've had bad experiences with players. I also think that on the Internet, the voices of those who've had those experiences get amplified somewhat.

OTOH, what @Thomas Shey is saying about people being taught not to rock the boat is correct for society in general. In school and work and in many families, lots of people learn not to make waves (are punished early and often for doing so). A player needn't have had a stereotypical dictatorial GM in order to have reached the conclusion that pushing back against the desires of the person running the table is bad. So, maybe society is full of people who've learned not to resist authority, and TRPG tables--existing in society--are full of players who've learned not to push back against the GM, as a specific example of a general principle.

I guess I'm not really arguing with either of you, here.

I agree with all of that.

 

[Thomas Shey]

OTOH, what @Thomas Shey is saying about people being taught not to rock the boat is correct for society in general. In school and work and in many families, lots of people learn not to make waves (are punished early and often for doing so). A player needn't have had a stereotypical dictatorial GM in order to have reached the conclusion that pushing back against the desires of the person running the table is bad. So, maybe society is full of people who've learned not to resist authority, and TRPG tables--existing in society--are full of players who've learned not to push back against the GM, as a specific example of a general principle.

I guess I'm not really arguing with either of you, here.

Yeah, I'm not talking just about players with Viking-Hat GMs here. The truth is that the default response you get when a player is described as challenging something a GM does is, essentially "I wouldn't tolerate that at my table", maybe with some qualifiers about talking about it later or other things that still add up to "players that challenge GMs are bad players." Its damn near the default response you get on this subject.

What are players expected to take from this sort of thing? That they're going to get, at best, brushed off (theoretically until "later", but one can question how often "later" actually happens), at worst vocally backhanded for doing so (possibly including by other players who have similar expectations). If someone doesn't think the majority of people get the take home from that that they are not to do that, whatever the reason, I kind of don't know what to say to them; as you say, people get that take home from all kinds of other parts of their life, why should it not somehow happen here?

 

[Thomas Shey]

So what conversation is there? You made a broad, unsubstantiated claim. One that can neither be proven nor disproven. One that's not really on topic. I disagree. I think it's a bit silly to make blanket statements with zero evidence and don't really see the point. So I said so.

Feel free to ask how many people on here have the same experience I'm referencing. Especially those who play only. You can argue that's not "evidence" if you like, but at a certain point when a pattern repeats itself over the years in enough places to enough people, I think that is evidence, even if its not super-rigorous (as any social evidence can't be). As far as I'm concerned I do have evidence, even if its not possible to display it. As far as I can tell, in general what I've said hasn't even been contraversial to most people in the hobby I've seen discuss it over the years; its too common (which is not to say universal, but then I never said it was).

Are there bad DMs? Absolutely. I've had a couple, left games because of it. Bad players? DMed and played with some. Difference is that a good DM can frequently deal with a bad player and even if the player ultimately leaves the group the game goes on. If the DM is bad, you can try to give them feedback but most of the time the only recourse is to leave the game and the game is over.

The issues the suppression of talking back isn't limited to people who've had bad GMs. As I noted, its virtually the default response you get to discussions of players doing that; the only question is how severe and rigid the response is.

We've now established where we stand. I see nothing to add other than statements that basically come down to "I'm right" vs "No, I am" and eventually endless responses that boil down to "neener neener".

Want to start a separate thread on this issue? Go ahead. Maybe I'll even share a horror story or two. But hijack this thread which is dealing with a real world issue and not some hypothetical? Meh.

But I think it absolutely bears on how much the players involved were willing to push back on the GM in question. If you don't see why that's relevant, I don't know what to tell you.