D&D 5E Teleportation circles costs *how* much?!

[Quickleaf]

Just a thought experiment, probably plenty flawed, using the D&D untrained/trained salaries in the PHB.

Say I have a modest city with 10,000 people. We've invested in education (roughly comparable to 1550's France with ~19% literacy) and have a burgeoning social support infrastructure.

76% (7,600) are untrained, making 2 sp per day or 1 gp per five-day. Annually, they collectively make 554,800 gp.
20% (2,000) are trained, making 2 gp per day or 10 gp per five-day. Annually, they collectively make 1,460,000 gp.
1% (100) are specialists who work on a contract basis, via patronage, or other systems that aren't neatly taxed.
3% (300) are spared from paying taxes due to hardship. Annually, paying to support them at a Modest lifestyle (1 gp/day/person), which includes a Poor lifestyle plus medical expenses, is an 108,000 gp investment.

Every year, my people pay 2.5% of their income as taxes.

This amounts to (0.025) * [Untrained Taxes (554,800) + Trained Taxes (1,460,000) - Hardship Fund (108,000)] = 47,670 gp in taxes.

That's an ideal world. Let's say that we're actually able to collect 75% of that each year (which is still a terrific assumption), that's still 35,752 gp.

We have a lot of things to pay for, of course, but compare that to the cost of a permanent Teleportation Circle (18,250 gp) and, while clearly a massive expense at half our annual tax budget, its not entirely implausible if we plan for it and set aside a "Teleportation Circle Fund" over 5-15 years.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Just a thought experiment, probably plenty flawed, using the D&D untrained/trained salaries in the PHB.

Say I have a modest city with 10,000 people. We've invested in education (roughly comparable to 1550's France with ~19% literacy) and have a burgeoning social support infrastructure.

76% (7,600) are untrained, making 2 sp per day or 1 gp per five-day. Annually, they collectively make 554,800 gp.
20% (2,000) are trained, making 2 gp per day or 10 gp per five-day. Annually, they collectively make 1,460,000 gp.
1% (100) are specialists who work on a contract basis, via patronage, or other systems that aren't neatly taxed.
3% (300) are spared from paying taxes due to hardship. Annually, paying to support them at a Modest lifestyle (1 gp/day/person), which includes a Poor lifestyle plus medical expenses, is an 108,000 gp investment.

Every year, my people pay 2.5% of their income as taxes.

This amounts to (0.025) * [Untrained Taxes (554,800) + Trained Taxes (1,460,000) - Hardship Fund (108,000)] = 47,670 gp in taxes.

That's an ideal world. Let's say that we're actually able to collect 75% of that each year (which is still a terrific assumption), that's still 35,752 gp.

We have a lot of things to pay for, of course, but compare that to the cost of a permanent Teleportation Circle (18,250 gp) and, while clearly a massive expense at half our annual tax budget, its not entirely implausible if we plan for it and set aside a "Teleportation Circle Fund" over 5-15 years.

Yep, and it gets easier with more realistic tax numbers, 2.5% is fairly low I think from when I researched this topic a while back.

The problem I had when figuring this out was that a city watch and other such government funded organizations are really expensive. Though thinking back on it, I didn't end up taxing those individuals in my model, which could have skewed things.

 

[Ulfgeir]

Gotta go with Shidaku.

I mean, does anyone really think the nobility of Waterdeep can't afford to install a circle or two? Or the Lords of Thay, who, not to put too fine a point on it, literally run a massive despotic wizard nation?

Maybe each mage there has to make certain magical items as proof of their skill, before they are allowed to become master mages and getting their certificate. So look at it as a type of apprenticeship. How they get the funds for it is their problem.

 

[Al2O3]

Maybe each mage there has to make certain magical items as proof of their skill, before they are allowed to become master mages and getting their certificate. So look at it as a type of apprenticeship. How they get the funds for it is their problem.

In academia you have to write a master thesis to get a master's degree. The equivalent for artisans in medevial guilds was making a masterwork to go from journeyman to master (and a journeyman test or work before that to go from apprentice to journeyman).

I haven't read the thread closely enough to quite know the context of this compared to the teleportation circle, but having "master spellcasting" or such makes sense from a worldbuilding perspective.

 

[Stalker0]

Just a thought experiment, probably plenty flawed, using the D&D untrained/trained salaries in the PHB.

Say I have a modest city with 10,000 people. We've invested in education (roughly comparable to 1550's France with ~19% literacy) and have a burgeoning social support infrastructure.

76% (7,600) are untrained, making 2 sp per day or 1 gp per five-day. Annually, they collectively make 554,800 gp.
20% (2,000) are trained, making 2 gp per day or 10 gp per five-day. Annually, they collectively make 1,460,000 gp.
1% (100) are specialists who work on a contract basis, via patronage, or other systems that aren't neatly taxed.
3% (300) are spared from paying taxes due to hardship. Annually, paying to support them at a Modest lifestyle (1 gp/day/person), which includes a Poor lifestyle plus medical expenses, is an 108,000 gp investment.

Every year, my people pay 2.5% of their income as taxes.

This amounts to (0.025) * [Untrained Taxes (554,800) + Trained Taxes (1,460,000) - Hardship Fund (108,000)] = 47,670 gp in taxes.

That's an ideal world. Let's say that we're actually able to collect 75% of that each year (which is still a terrific assumption), that's still 35,752 gp.

We have a lot of things to pay for, of course, but compare that to the cost of a permanent Teleportation Circle (18,250 gp) and, while clearly a massive expense at half our annual tax budget, its not entirely implausible if we plan for it and set aside a "Teleportation Circle Fund" over 5-15 years.

This is a good summary.

That said, I think we have to remember that the gold cost of an item is a convenient game mechanic way to control power within a party, and does not have to have bearing on the world economy. I think its feasible that a well to do city might have access to mining and resources that could get them those materials more cheaply. Now if a PC wants to buy some chalk from the city supplies...normal price of course, but the city wouldn't truly be paying that amount of gold for it.

But ultimately I think what this shows is that a teleportation circle would certainly be a major expense for "true cities", but is not so out of the realm of possibility that it makes no sense for them to be there, especially if a king at one point in history did a push for major cities to get one or something of that nature. Its the equivalent of Rome aqueducts and roads, a major investment in infrastructure that ultimately pays for itself many times over.

 

[Quickleaf]

Yep, and it gets easier with more realistic tax numbers, 2.5% is fairly low I think from when I researched this topic a while back.

The problem I had when figuring this out was that a city watch and other such government funded organizations are really expensive. Though thinking back on it, I didn't end up taxing those individuals in my model, which could have skewed things.

Yeah, probably 7.5-10% would be more realistic. I was kind of trying to do a "quick and dirty" semi-discretionary tax budget. So I went with a lower number, assuming that most of the taxes with an actual tax percentage were already spoken for paying salaries and other infrastructure maintenance/building. It's all super rough, but I think supports Stalker0's point about creation of a permanent Teleportation Circle being comparable to other big infrastructure projects from history.

This is a good summary.

That said, I think we have to remember that the gold cost of an item is a convenient game mechanic way to control power within a party, and does not have to have bearing on the world economy. I think its feasible that a well to do city might have access to mining and resources that could get them those materials more cheaply. Now if a PC wants to buy some chalk from the city supplies...normal price of course, but the city wouldn't truly be paying that amount of gold for it.

But ultimately I think what this shows is that a teleportation circle would certainly be a major expense for "true cities", but is not so out of the realm of possibility that it makes no sense for them to be there, especially if a king at one point in history did a push for major cities to get one or something of that nature. Its the equivalent of Rome aqueducts and roads, a major investment in infrastructure that ultimately pays for itself many times over.

Totally. 100%. That's actually more the direction I'd go with it personally. I agree that thinking of magic as GP is reductionist. Who controls the "rare chalks" and what does that mean exactly? Who produces "rare inks infused with gemstones" and who are they selling to / where are they selling? Are there different possible materials that will meet the spell's requirement, and might that suggest commercial rivalries or different resources a city could send adventurers to secure?

 

[jasper]

Just a thought experiment, probably plenty flawed, using the D&D untrained/trained salaries in the PHB.
.......

Every year, my people pay 2.5% of their income as taxes.

This amounts to (0.025) * [Untrained Taxes (554,800) + Trained Taxes (1,460,000) - Hardship Fund (108,000)] = 47,670 gp in taxes.

That's an ideal world. Let's say that we're actually able to collect 75% of that each year (which is still a terrific assumption), that's still 35,752 gp.

We have a lot of things to pay for, of course, but compare that to the cost of a permanent Teleportation Circle (18,250 gp) and, while clearly a massive expense at half our annual tax budget, its not entirely implausible if we plan for it and set aside a "Teleportation Circle Fund" over 5-15 years.

Can I move to your city. 2.5% of income tax. And that is all. What you forget is fees, licenses, hotel taxes, etc. 18,250 GP is not a lot once you figure in those.
Question What would be the price to use a teleportation circle? Imagine London to New York City Circles. $10 each way? Or less in the off hours.

 

[Krachek]

1 DnD is really bad at economics.
2 DnD is really, really bad at economics.
Said that,
you may choose to have a setting with big functional network of teleportation circle.
Or a setting with few ones, some vestige of an old empire.
it is not a rules mater.

 

[Faolyn]

Assuming there are enough people in the desert to need 7500 lbs of wheat.

With a reliable source of food and water? There would be.

 

[Faolyn]

Don't forget that the rules in the PH are mainly for PCs. The DM can easily say that any NPC wizard can build a permanent teleportation circle in less time, using cheaper reagents, because they have access to arcane or divine knowledge the PCs don't.