D&D General why do we have halflings and gnomes?

[Maxperson]

If that is what you got, then you are not paying attention or purposely avoiding it.

The complaint is that halflings are all farmers with no armies, knights, magic, tech, engineering, magic items, major organizations, political power, or wealth and mostly purposely avoid all of these culturally in world littered with monsters, evil humanoids, and dark lords.

Elves could be all farmers because 75%+ of the citizens are trained archers and swordsmen and their culture vomits out wizards, magic knights, duelists, clerics, druids, and rangers.

These farmers can turn back a goblin invasion. That makes them more than just farmers.

"An elder doesn't simply announce, "We must be always ready for a goblin attack." Instead, that advice is delivered in a story about how a village long ago turned back a goblin invasion, which both entertains the villagers and teaches them what to do if goblin raiders find the village."

 

[QuentinGeorge]

In the context of a medieval world, most humans are farmers! Why pick on the halflings for that? (I imagine most dwarves are farmers, too).

Furthermore halflings seem to be a race that lives within human kingdoms and empires, so the idea that they are not protected seems farcical.

 

[Mind of tempest]

In the context of a medieval world, most humans are farmers! Why pick on the halflings for that? (I imagine most dwarves are farmers, too).

Furthermore halflings seem to be a race that lives within human kingdoms and empires, so the idea that they are not protected seems farcical.

what the point of them if they are more or less identical to the human peasants in culture if all they are is literally short peasants of human kingdoms they feel like something added in at one point because of a mandate.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Again, I don't care if you think it is a bad book. It is the only lore book that expands on Halflings for 5th edition. It is literally the only official material we have outside of the PHB, barring setting specific information from Eberron.

And, if all you want to do is consider the PHB, consider this.

"The diminutive halflings survive in a world full of larger creatures by avoiding notice or, barring that, avoiding offense."

or

"The combination of their inherent stealth and their unassuming nature helps halflings to avoid unwanted attention."

Yes, there is a line about halflings being fierce if their homes are threatened, but they also have two lines stating outright that they are unassuming and avoid notice as a rule of thumb. Living in small villages with large farms.

So, halflings just avoid being noticed, and they love the simple life and good food. That doesn't sound to me like they have any sort of well-defended homes. Any sort of defenders beyond... burly farm boys?

I mean, I believe it was you who made the claim they were one of the most terrifying races to fight from the PHB. What are you seeing that I'm not? Since you are going to dismiss the only other lore we have because you think it is dumb.

Lol it doesn’t matter if it’s the only lore expansion for them, it isn’t core. None of it can be assumed. It’s opt-in, not opt-out.

And the PHB literally says they fiercely defend their homes. Therefor, it is canonically the case that they do. The other lines you quoted don’t contradict that, either.

Like...yes, they avoid notice. What’s your point? How on earth does that support anything you’re trying to say?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not constantly, no. Orcs and goblins aren't everywhere and the others aren't common enough to constantly be raiding and attacking. It happens sometimes with orcs and goblins, but that's because there are PCs nearby to stop the raid or take revenge on the raiders.

The bolded part is very meta and gamist. Designing a world around that logic just does not work well, usually.

And while Orcs and Goblins aren't everywhere... there are a lot of them in many many many places. Looking at the FR wiki tells us that orcs general favored terrains are "Artic, Forests, Grasslands, Hills, Mountains, Swamps, and the Underdark" And goblins are said to be "common"

And those other creatures are rarer, but still not that rare, considering they are some of the most commonly encountered creatures in the game. And they all have in their lore blocks that they commonly raid and attack settlements. Particularly farmers for their livestock. If it happens commonly enough to be a common trait of the race in the racial write up.... it happens often enough to be a concern for the common folk.

None of those would be much of a concern. They're rare and most of those creatures wouldn't do more than eat a farmer or two and leave. That's not a town raid.

Ankhegs are based on Ants, they would destroy a town. And again, you are saying each individual thing is rare, but when you have dozens of rare things, one of them occurring is no longer a rare occurence.

Evil dragon attacks are rare in the extreme. They aren't stupid enough to attack cities. Demons and devils are even more rare, and don't have the numbers on the prime plane to form a raid. Evil societies don't typically raid, either. Perhaps kidnap someone for a sacrifice, but they aren't going to be taking over towns the vast majority of the time. Those rare times when they do, it's because PCs are there.

What city? We are talking frontier towns.

And, I don't know what kind of evil societies you are thinking of, but I was more referring to things like The Yuan-Ti Empire, the Drow Empire, The Hobgoblin Empire, you know, places known for conquering and taking dozens or hundreds of slaves.

Cults would be more likely to kidnap a single person for a sacrifice, and they would summon a demon which... doesn't really need numbers. Three Balezau could wipe out a town with no real militia in no time. Sure, maybe people running and screaming might escape, but far far more would die.

Also, again, you can't world build under the assumption "Bad things only happen when the players are there to stop them" it makes the world feel unrealistic.

Each thing doesn't have a 1% chance of happening. Nowhere close to it. As I pointed out, most of those creatures you mentions wouldn't even be raiding at all. Even at the less than 1% chance of going into civilized lands, they'd just nab a loner to eat and head away. More people would end up dead from murders than from these monsters.

I think you are far far underestimating how full of monsters your typical DnD world is presented as. Or how the lore we are given shows how often they attack "civilized" lands. And, you also seem to be under the impression that each threat has to destroy the town.

It doesn't. Go to India, and I'm fairly certain you will find villages with Tiger Walls or other defenses against tigers. It isn't because a tiger is going to slaughter the whole village, but because a tiger might kill a few people every few years, and people don't appreciate that risk.

DnD worlds are full of large predators like that, and opposing groups that would assault these frontier towns on a regular basis. Them not having any defenses against those common attacks is... beyond bizarre.

 

[Chaosmancer]

What percentage of the population can cast even a cantrip? In most cases it takes years of training. All for a minor advantage during harvest? When most people never went to school, much less got an advanced education?

A wagon can easily carry five times as much as a floating disc. Which, while handy is a first level spell that only lasts an hour.

Again, it's useful I just don't see it making a huge difference in most campaigns. It's not powerful enough to replace wagons unless wizards are a dime a dozen. But it just depends on the campaign where magic can be anything from something whispered about around the fire to having wagons that fly through the air drawn by magical steeds being normal.

Not getting into that discussion again, just pointing out that while a wagon might be able to carry five times as much, it can't carry five times as much over a swamp, or through a narrow ravine or up a narrow mountain trail.

And if people were using cantrips that had a limitation that would make them less useful, it wouldn't take much tool use to figure out a way to make them useful again. Tool use is kind of our thing.

 

[Chaosmancer]

These farmers can turn back a goblin invasion. That makes them more than just farmers.

"An elder doesn't simply announce, "We must be always ready for a goblin attack." Instead, that advice is delivered in a story about how a village long ago turned back a goblin invasion, which both entertains the villagers and teaches them what to do if goblin raiders find the village."

But, if we are using this lore, (which was disapproved of by @doctorbadwolf ) then we also have to acknowledge that "what to do" involves hitting them with sticks and throwing rocks at them.

Even if we assume slings, that gives the Halflings slings, that is a range of 30/120 vs the goblins 80/240 with bows and armor. Are we going to say that the halflings improvised barrel lids are as good as the Goblins actual shields? Sticks beat scimitars?

This is a very problematic fight to declare that the Halflings would win, based only on that, and ignoring the fact that since thesre are mostly commoner's they have about half the health of the goblin raiders.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Lol it doesn’t matter if it’s the only lore expansion for them, it isn’t core. None of it can be assumed. It’s opt-in, not opt-out.

And the PHB literally says they fiercely defend their homes. Therefor, it is canonically the case that they do. The other lines you quoted don’t contradict that, either.

Like...yes, they avoid notice. What’s your point? How on earth does that support anything you’re trying to say?

If you are avoiding notice, do you stock up on arrows and armor? Build walls? Train in the use of weapons?

No. You don't do any of that, because that makes you seem like a threat. That isn't avoiding notice and avoiding trouble. To do that your first instinct would be to run or apologize. That is a contradiction. They avoid trouble, unless they need to defend themselves? That is more of a "we end fights, we don't start them" attitude, which is again, not congruent with how else they are presented.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

what the point of them if they are more or less identical to the human peasants in culture if all they are is literally short peasants of human kingdoms they feel like something added in at one point because of a mandate.

What's the point of dwarves, they're just short Scottish blacksmiths!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If you are avoiding notice, do you stock up on arrows and armor? Build walls? Train in the use of weapons?

No. You don't do any of that, because that makes you seem like a threat. That isn't avoiding notice and avoiding trouble. To do that your first instinct would be to run or apologize. That is a contradiction. They avoid trouble, unless they need to defend themselves? That is more of a "we end fights, we don't start them" attitude, which is again, not congruent with how else they are presented.

None of that follows, at all. You’re jumping ina totally random direction.

Like, you gotta be able to see that there no contradiction between “avoid notice” and “train to fight and...literally have weaponry in your town”, right?